Long Range Hunting: Hold Over Reticle, Dial or Both?

[bmart2622]

Of course not. No one has data to support “everyone should try both ways and see what works best for them”

Ok, I dont think that was what Form asked for

 

[hereinaz]

Your post is too intellectual, reasonable and mature. Did you not know that you are supposed to be an absolutist and relinquishing your confirmation bias is weakness? You must go the way of the bushido and harakiri.

Hahahaha, one can always hope!

I remember trying to make sense of these arguments as a newbie… just trying to keep them in mind.

 

[Fire_9]

I still think hold over is faster and more efficient in very low light conditions at sub 350 yard distances. I’ve personally had to completely come off the rifle and hold the turret close enough I could read the numbers to dial. No way Jose that is better than using a clear reticle and good glass.

Big difference between 350 and 650 like you originally mentioned. You seem to have your mind made up about what’s best. Go get some real world experience and report back. It’s the only way to truly know

 

[Fire_9]

How many pins do you have on your bow? Guessing it is more than one.

I can understand the comparison to archery but I don’t think it’s an apples to apples comparison. It’s pretty easy to remember 20, 30, 40, 50 for your pins. Remembering drops for a tree reticle is definitely going to be more difficult and would require someone to reference a drop card anyways. Being more accurate with an adjustable sight is why you’re seeing a shift in the archery world as well. A multi pin slider is the sight of choice for many western hunters because it’s easy to make a quick adjustment if an animal is moving within 20-50 yards but anything further than that, you’re probably better off dialing it in.

 

[General RE LEE]

I can understand the comparison to archery but I don’t think it’s an apples to apples comparison. It’s pretty easy to remember 20, 30, 40, 50 for your pins. Remembering drops for a tree reticle is definitely going to be more difficult and would require someone to reference a drop card anyways. Being more accurate with an adjustable sight is why you’re seeing a shift in the archery world as well. A multi pin slider is the sight of choice for many western hunters because it’s easy to make a quick adjustment if an animal is moving within 20-50 yards but anything further than that, you’re probably better off dialing it in.

1.75 ,4,7

That’s the MOA for 200,300,400 yards on my 140 ELD-M handloads. Super easy to remember like pins on my Black Gold bow sight

On my SFP scope, if I’m going to use the reticle I use 8x so the values are doubled. Adjusting the magnification to 8x is easy. The throw lever is centered on top at halfway point. Sounds complicated but it’s actually easy.

 

[Fire_9]

1.75 ,4,7

That’s the MOA for 200,300,400 yards on my 140 ELD-M handloads. Super easy to remember like pins on my Black Gold bow sight

On my SFP scope, if I’m going to use the reticle I use 8x so the values are doubled. Adjusting the magnification to 8x is easy. The throw lever is centered on top at halfway point. Sounds complicated but it’s actually easy.

All I will say is good luck. It sounds complicated because it is.

 

[General RE LEE]

All I will say is good luck. It sounds complicated because it is.

If counting hash marks on a reticle is difficult, you probably shouldn’t operate a vehicle.

 

[Fire_9]

If counting hash marks on a reticle is difficult, you probably shouldn’t operate a vehicle.

It’s not that difficult on the flat range dude. Adding stress to the situation is where things go sideways and that has been stated by many people. I highly suggest running your hunting setup in a NRL/PRS match to see how it works out for you. It’s not the same as hunting but there’s a lot of crossover

Im kind of curious why you even posted this question. You very obviously lack experience in this discipline and yet argue with people when they offer other answers. If you already had your mind made up why even ask the question?

 

[General RE LEE]

It’s not that difficult on the flat range dude. Adding stress to the situation is where things go sideways and that has been stated by many people. I highly suggest running your hunting setup in a NRL/PRS match to see how it works out for you. It’s not the same as hunting but there’s a lot of crossover

Im kind of curious why you even posted this question. You very obviously lack experience in this discipline and yet argue with people when they offer other answers. If you already had your mind made up why even ask the question?

Fair enough. I like holding onto my confirmation bias. Don’t mess up a good thing I got going over here.

 

[General RE LEE]

Funny I posted this beginning of this year and here I am again. In the box blind over a massive crop field yesterday evening. Shooter Buck at 380 yards. Range him and CAN NOT see the number on the turret inside the blind. So I fumble for my phone to get a light so I can see to dial. I come up 7.25 and shoot high. Buck is meandering towards me so his distance is constantly changing. I estimated he moved about two clicks closer. Shoot again and no hit. Remind you I shoot weekly and with this 6 ARC and my hand loads, 400 yards and closer is no problem.

Shit ok he is walking towards my blind even though I’ve shot at him twice. Screw it I return turret to zero and decide I’m going with reticle hold overs. My Zeiss Conquest has SFP ZB-I reticle so I practice on half power which makes my values 2 MOA. Range buck again and he’s 250. I hold over and drill him. He’s down in 20 yards 6 ARC bolt gun 108 ELD-Murder handloads.

Takeaways:

1) Assume you will not be able to read your turret in low light in a dark blind shooting out into a field.

2) Slow down and double check your DOPE. I dialed 3/4 MOA high on first shot.

3) I think it’s better in a dynamic situation under 500 yards to shoot off the reticle. No dialing required and adjustments can be made in hold over vs coming off the scope to adjust a turret. Especially if it’s too dark to read turret.

4) 6 ARC is an awesome cartridge, especially suppressed. Report isn’t much louder than a unsuppressed .22.

 

[WTFJohn]

Funny I posted this beginning of this year and here I am again. In the box blind over a massive crop field yesterday evening. Shooter Buck at 380 yards. Range him and CAN NOT see the number on the turret inside the blind. So I fumble for my phone to get a light so I can see to dial. I come up 7.25 and shoot high. Buck is meandering towards me so his distance is constantly changing. I estimated he moved about two clicks closer. Shoot again and no hit. Remind you I shoot weekly and with this 6 ARC and my hand loads, 400 yards and closer is no problem.

Shit ok he is walking towards my blind even though I’ve shot at him twice. Screw it I return turret to zero and decide I’m going with reticle hold overs. My Zeiss Conquest has SFP ZB-I reticle so I practice on half power which makes my values 2 MOA. Range buck again and he’s 250. I hold over and drill him. He’s down in 20 yards 6 ARC bolt gun 108 ELD-Murder handloads.

Takeaways:

1) Assume you will not be able to read your turret in low light in a dark blind shooting out into a field.

2) Slow down and double check your DOPE. I dialed 3/4 MOA high on first shot.

3) I think it’s better in a dynamic situation under 500 yards to shoot off the reticle. No dialing required and adjustments can be made in hold over vs coming off the scope to adjust a turret. Especially if it’s too dark to read turret.

4) 6 ARC is an awesome cartridge, especially suppressed. Report isn’t much louder than a unsuppressed .22.

Not trying to be a smartass, but... Under self-imposed pressure, you made multiple mistakes prior to the shot. You got lucky that the deer came closer, and that your shots weren't giving the buck AVB leg. You then got lucky again, as you already said you can't see enough to dial (no tactile feedback when dialing? Count your clicks) but managed to get your scope just right at half power for a SFP holdover.

You had time to take multiple shots and get multiple ranges on the animal. The error here is in the shooter. Your story directly contradicts your "400 yards and closer is no problem" statement. I'm glad it worked out for you, but I would not use that experience to make a call on holdovers vs dialing.

 

[General RE LEE]

Not trying to be a smartass, but... Under self-imposed pressure, you made multiple mistakes prior to the shot. You got lucky that the deer came closer, and that your shots weren't giving the buck AVB leg. You then got lucky again, as you already said you can't see enough to dial (no tactile feedback when dialing? Count your clicks) but managed to get your scope just right at half power for a SFP holdover.

You had time to take multiple shots and get multiple ranges on the animal. The error here is in the shooter. Your story directly contradicts your "400 yards and closer is no problem" statement. I'm glad it worked out for you, but I would not use that experience to make a call on holdovers vs dialing.

Cause stuff always goes perfect when this guy goes hunting. He’s going to count clicks on a hunt. GTFO

 

[WTFJohn]

Cause stuff always goes perfect when this guy goes hunting. He’s going to count clicks on a hunt. GTFO

You had plenty of time, the only reason you missed when you dialed is shooter error/inexperience.

"He's going to count clicks on a hunt".

Uh, yeah. That's the easiest thing I can do to ensure all my hiking and stalking isn't for naught.

 

[General RE LEE]

Not trying to be a smartass, but... Under self-imposed pressure, you made multiple mistakes prior to the shot. You got lucky that the deer came closer, and that your shots weren't giving the buck AVB leg. You then got lucky again, as you already said you can't see enough to dial (no tactile feedback when dialing? Count your clicks) but managed to get your scope just right at half power for a SFP holdover.

You had time to take multiple shots and get multiple ranges on the animal. The error here is in the shooter. Your story directly contradicts your "400 yards and closer is no problem" statement. I'm glad it worked out for you, but I would not use that experience to make a call on holdovers vs dialing.

Fair enough that you may not know but Zeiss puts half power top dead center of the magnification ring on the Conquest V4. Also indicator marking subtensions x2. Very easy to put it on the right power.

 

[General RE LEE]

You had plenty of time, the only reason you missed when you dialed is shooter error/inexperience.

"He's going to count clicks on a hunt".

Uh, yeah. That's the easiest thing I can do to ensure all my hiking and stalking isn't for naught.

Plenty of time? You must not hunt much.

 

[General RE LEE]

You had plenty of time, the only reason you missed when you dialed is shooter error/inexperience.

"He's going to count clicks on a hunt".

Uh, yeah. That's the easiest thing I can do to ensure all my hiking and stalking isn't for naught.

So if an animal is moving and stopping for brief intervals measured by seconds, you’re going to count clicks and keep track of how many clicks you’ve made and subtract clicks if you weren’t able to get a shot off and the animal continues to move?

Yeah right dude that isn’t going to work.

 

[WTFJohn]

Plenty of time? You must not hunt much.

I'm at around 30 days this season on elk, deer, bears, and moose. Still have a few tags in my pocket with time still on the clock. It's not as much as some, but it's a decent chunk of time.

So if an animal is moving and stopping for brief intervals measured by seconds, you’re going to count clicks and keep track of how many clicks you’ve made and subtract clicks if you weren’t able to get a shot off and the animal continues to move?

Yeah right dude that isn’t going to work.

At 380 yards, I need to dial 1.3 mils. At 350 it is 1.2, at 325 1.0. If the deer is sprinting 50 yards, you bet your ass I am re-ranging and knocking a click or two off. If he's walking, I'm waiting for him to stop so I can range, dial, and shoot. Are you not re-ranging in this scenario? Are you shooting walking/running deer at 380 yds holding for both elevation and wind?

 

[General RE LEE]

I'm at around 30 days this season on elk, deer, bears, and moose. Still have a few tags in my pocket with time still on the clock. It's not as much as some, but it's a decent chunk of time.



At 380 yards, I need to dial 1.3 mils. At 350 it is 1.2, at 325 1.0. If the deer is sprinting 50 yards, you bet your ass I am re-ranging and knocking a click or two off. If he's walking, I'm waiting for him to stop so I can range, dial, and shoot. Are you not re-ranging in this scenario? Are you shooting walking/running deer at 380 yds holding for both elevation and wind?

No I don’t shoot running game.

 

[hereinaz]

3) I think it’s better in a dynamic situation under 500 yards to shoot off the reticle. No dialing required and adjustments can be made in hold over vs coming off the scope to adjust a turret. Especially if it’s too dark to read turret.

#3 is the truth, the potential for error shooting out to 500 with many cartridges with a reticle is within the vitals as margin of error.

Dialing is always best, but in a dynamic situation where dialing introduces the possibility for error, the ability to hold over is important.

@General RE LEE as much as we practice and train, we still encounter new experiences and learn. Good on you to come back to refresh.

@WTFJohn you are correct shooter error plays into it, but you would be the only person I know who would rely only on counting clicks. I only mention that to caution others against that.

IMO, if you can’t reliably dial, use your reticle to hold over and practice it. It takes one source of error out of the equation.

 

[JiminAZ]

Depends on the cartridge. I would draw the line sooner than 500 yards.

Just got back from an Elk hunt with my wife. Gun (6.5 CM) was zero'd at 100. I brought it up to 0.5 mils for general hunting which is a 225 yard zero. So she was good to 275 without having to mess with anything.

At 300 the come up was 1 mil (and yeah I was willing to count 5 clicks if necessary but we weren't in a dark blind)

at 350 the come up was 1.6 so I just rounded it to 1.5.

So I knew we were good to 250 or so, 5 more clicks for 300, 5 more clicks for 350. Past that the bullet is falling fast enough and we are far enough away that we both need and can get an accurate range and dial accordingly.

So out to 350 we had it nailed without any need for holdovers. After that we were dialing with precision.

Given the cartridge she wasn't going to shoot past 450 anyway.

Still dialing for distance and holding for wind here........just like I outlined in post #44. I don't find it hard to hold these numbers in my head, YMMV, etc.