Long range bullet- eldx vs partition

[hereinaz]

One of the issues with match bullets is the expansion is related to velocity and as it decreases expansion changes. The change is USUALLY a good thing.....until it's not.

As long as it is over 1800 fps the expansion is still violent and aggressive in Berger with my experience. At high muzzle velocity out of my 7 and 25 short mags with Berger I get carnage and tennis ball sized pass throughs. With chunks of lung getting pulled out at 100 yards.

On any traditional broadside shot, shoulder or ribs, velocity over 1800 fps any partition or hunting target bullet will expand and kill.

I purposely said that the penetrating quality of a partition loses effectiveness on less than ideal shots where you need deep penetration because of shot angle, which relates directly to the 600 yard shot on topic.

A 6.5 at 2800 fps mv is at about 1850 at 600 yards. So a 6.5 creed or 260 is at its limits. A magnum pushing 3000 fps is more better of course.

Everything is a tradeoff and very situational.

 

[hereinaz]

Velocity? both types are slowing and performance falls. The partition at various velocities is shown above.

In a broadside cross body shot, the depth of penetration is inconsequential for either bullet, even at 600 yards. No one should argue the effectiveness of any reasonable bullet choice for that. The effects may differ for the same bullet at higher velocity, but they will expand and will kill down to 1800.

At least one argument for the partition, depth of penetration/pass through, on a quartering away shot on a BOAL at 600 yards is where I begin to question the effectiveness of any bullet penetrating the muscle and/or guts. I bet it can happen, but confidence is very low in it happening, given the narrow slot for a good shot as I drew out above.

When it comes to MY long range shooting, you have to consider that distance gives time and opportunity to prepare effectively. I usually have been studying the wind, ranging the terrain, and determining the best shooting position before I spot the animal. If I spot the animal first, then distance allows time to complete the above.

So, if I were to choose a bullet to make any long range shot, I am choosing the one that shoots more precisely to gain every advantage to thread the needle. Generally, that is a "target" shaped bullet. Whether you choose an ELDx or Accubond LR, which are "hunting" bullets in "target" design, or a "target" bullet matters less. I have shot some "non target" bullets at long range. It was harder for me to shoot long range groups that were similar to group size at 100 yards. They just aren't as consistent, but whether/how much that matters inside 600 is less. Inside 400 yards, it matters very little if it matters at all given the relationship between velocity/target size/dispersion.

As an aside, "target" bullets can penetrate deeply when they come apart and the pieces of jacket are sharp and large. It doesn't happen every time though. I have seen elk hit multiple times in the vitals, and a small minority will get an exit out to 500ish. Many larger pieces are found on the offside hide. Pass throughs have been inconsequential because there has been no need for tracking.

Its only one anecdote, but this was a coues deer shot at 730 yards with a 180 vldh at muzzle velocity of 3025 fps. It was a hard quarter facing the shooter. Went through the shoulder, the lung, the gut, exited and then pieces of the bullet hit the offside ham. You can see the carnage that happened when the bullet pulled grass from the guts and "blew up" on the leg. We found the bullet fragments in the ham.

Coues deer are small, but the bullet still traversed well over 24" of internals before exiting and then hitting the offside ham.

 

[SouthernCharm]

Thank you all. As I try to learn more, the less I know. The picture of the deer is a great example. You take that shot at 600 yards, your “cold bore shot” with miss judged wind on top with a small step and the target bullet would not result in a very good thing, same as by the time the partition gets there, possibly not hit the critter. I’m not for one way or another, I know that I’m enjoying reading, watching podcast and engaging here to understand the different perspectives and rules of physics. Tight lines and shoot straight!

 

[hereinaz]

Thank you all. As I try to learn more, the less I know. The picture of the deer is a great example. You take that shot at 600 yards, your “cold bore shot” with miss judged wind on top with a small step and the target bullet would not result in a very good thing, same as by the time the partition gets there, possibly not hit the critter. I’m not for one way or another, I know that I’m enjoying reading, watching podcast and engaging here to understand the different perspectives and rules of physics. Tight lines and shoot straight!

Keep at it and you’ll be able to see the truth as it threads it way through comments and videos. I am always learning too.

Also, you can pay attention with a little more trust when they are talking about "their" choice. Typically, they will be more honest about that. The opposite is true when they argue against something. Their bias/ignorance come out and that's when you can't trust what they say and the lies get more outright. Its why I like the idea of both sides explaining facts and details why they came to their choice. Let me choose for me after that.

When many people say "don't shoot long range" "long range is unethical" or "don't shoot that bullet" I think it is mostly based on innocent ignorance and too much pride/bias to even consider alternative views. Although, there are a good share of "industry" people who have a financial interest in the viewpoints they espouse. Scratch deep enough, and you can see it in their arguments.

I am confident when I press the trigger or I have someone else press it on my gun at long range, out to 1100 yards. But, the situations are highly constrained and orchestrated, and not everything qualifies as a viable opportunity. I am not the only one out there doing this, and I am certainly not the best.

The issue has been "target" bullets and 600 yards. I grew up in Missouri, the "Show Me" state, so the proof is in the pudding. I wonder what arguments he would have against my choices?

The shot in the video below is 575 yards, not 600 yards, but this is my level of confidence with my “target” bullets and my rifle system. I didn't want to wait for him to stand, because of other time considerations. Given the environmental conditions at the time and my rifle, I didn't think the shot would go any other way. Its the only frontal shot I have ever taken, all others are broadside or quartering.

And, this is the type of field practice that built the confidence in the gun and that particular situation.

 

[hereinaz]

Thank you all. As I try to learn more, the less I know.

If you haven't heard of it before, the Dunning Kruger effect explains the path you are on and why some "experts" get outside of their lane and are confidently wrong.

You were ignorant, but you didn't know what you didn't know. Now, as you learn more, you'll constantly learn but that only exposes you to even more things you don't know. Its a paradox, the more you know the more you then know that you don't know.

The benefit is that you can reach that critical point that your skill and knowledge are adequate to go out and execute on demand. And, you'll know your limits. That's what makes a lethal and ethical "long range" hunter.

Dunning–Kruger Effect - The Decision Lab

Dunning–Kruger Effect explains why the least competent at a task often incorrectly rate themselves as high-performers because they do not know otherwise.

thedecisionlab.com

 

[SouthernCharm]

Hereinaz, good shooting. Nice write up. I’ve shot some critters at long range for me, now just trying to set my gear up better, make the better choice and more importantly shoot more, from 100 to hopefully 1000. Trying to find that distance in a safe shooting spot becomes a challenge. Eric Cortina has a shooting challenge going on with deer kill shots that are interesting and listened to Little Crow Gunworks. Both spiked my interest of seeking better knowledge/facts and trying to be the best I can be in the situation at hand.

 

[hereinaz]

Hereinaz, good shooting. Nice write up. I’ve shot some critters at long range for me, now just trying to set my gear up better, make the better choice and more importantly shoot more, from 100 to hopefully 1000. Trying to find that distance in a safe shooting spot becomes a challenge. Eric Cortina has a shooting challenge going on with deer kill shots that are interesting and listened to Little Crow Gunworks. Both spiked my interest of seeking better knowledge/facts and trying to be the best I can be in the situation at hand.

Right on!

I like Eric Cortina's stuff too. I haven't paid attention to much new YouTube content for a couple years. I'll look for the videos on his challenge.

 

[Wrench]

I've personally taken elk with 140 class match bullets well beyond 600 with a 6.5-06 and 260ai. My biggest concern is when guys with sharp edged guns feed narrow meplat bullets and close up the nose.

 

[hereinaz]

I've personally taken elk with 140 class match bullets well beyond 600 with a 6.5-06 and 260ai. My biggest concern is when guys with sharp edged guns feed narrow meplat bullets and close up the nose.

Just a curiousity at this point. I have heard some conflicting information, that it isn't necessarily the open tip, but also whether the jacket is thin enough for it to deform. For instance, the Berger Target bullets look almost indistinguishable at the tip, but the thicker jacket prevents it. On the other hand, I know that using a wire bit to open meplats makes them more consistent. Is that because the tip is opened or because it is thinned just enough...

Regardless, I check meplats and have made sure my guns don't mess up the tips when cycling. I have the same concern.

 

[Castle Rock]

I've personally taken elk with 140 class match bullets well beyond 600 with a 6.5-06 and 260ai. My biggest concern is when guys with sharp edged guns feed narrow meplat bullets and close up the nose.

In my limited experience I don’t think a closed nose is an issue as Bergers initiate expansion wit the thin nose section collapsing inwards on it self, and I don’t think opening the tip makes much difference

 

[Wrench]

I've messed around with the opening and I have never seen delayed expansion on a match burner which is open, but have on rdf which is not so much. The dtac with the ring seems to upset from collapse.

 

[Castle Rock]

Yeah, I would be interested in trying the Barnes, but RDF have been really inconsistent on target for me, so no interest there

 

[Wrench]

Another interesting trend is guys looking for the absolute heaviest bullet they can find.

If you compare a 123 scenar and a 156 eol at 1400 yards, the two are within inches of each other when launched from a 6.5 prc which seems to be a current darling case. The bc difference is tremendous but the performance is similar. If a guy wants to shoot beyond trans I understand the love, but inside.....it's all victims of marketing.