Listen to guides when loading for big game

[nobody]

I hit a big bull elk in that same spot years ago with a .338 wm. Knocked him hoofs up and we celebrated thinking we just killed a stud. He went down in thick cover. Hiked up there with recovery and packing gear and all that was there was an indentation in the snow and two tiny specks of blood. We followed his tracks over 2 miles with no more blood. He was killed on the next hunt by someone else and was totally fine.

That said, while I don’t truly believe in knockdown power, common sense tells me there is a logical balance. I’m still not using a .223 for elk hunting when there are better tools (like a 6.5 prc) at my disposal.

Had a similar experience with a 270 on a 5 point bull this fall. Hit him at 280 yards and he dropped and rolled downhill 50 yards, my cousin in law turned around and started celebrating (first elk), and I hollered at him to stay on the gun as I watched that bull jump up and run into the cover. We looked for blood the rest of the night, nothing. Went in the next morning and found a dad and his son setting up on a 5 point in the same general area, and watched the boy drop him at 450 with a 6.5 creed. Ended up being the same bull my cousin in law hit the day before. He was totally fine, up and feeding and happy as a clam, albeit with a high (likely above the spinal cord) gunshot wound. The “smaller” cartridge ended up being his demise, sheerly because of the shot placement of the kid with the creed.

5 days later we were hunting on the last day still trying to fill his tag, and came around the corner at first light on a trail and saw a guy setting up to shoot uphill, and found several elk in this herd at about 380 yards. Turns out the guy was setting up on a spike (Utah), and my cousin had a limited entry big bull tag. The guy offered to wait for us to set up and do a “1-2-3 shoot” two-fer, but we declined given my cousin’s poor shooting earlier this week at a much shorter distance. We had agreed to keep his shots limited to 200 yards and broadside. Anyways, these elk were right at the top of a ridge, and any effort to get closer would’ve resulted in them running off, so we just sat and watched them walk out of our lives. 3 nice bulls, one of which would’ve eclipsed the 340 mark easily, broadside at a distance that I wouldn’t have even thought twice about shooting myself (or basically any other family member). As they disappeared, we watched the other guy let one rip and heard the “whap” of a solid impact. We wished them well and continued on. We found and tried to get on another bull but no luck, and a couple hours later went back past where that guy had shot that spike while relocating to another spot. We stumbled on his wife, and it turns out he shot the spike in the butt and they’d been following it for 4 hours trying to put it down. He was shooting a 300 PRC, which by all “traditional gun knowledge” should’ve dropped him on the spot. But a bad shot is a bad shot, and I’m still not sure if they ever found that spike.

Bottom line, amen to your post. You can hit them with anything, but if you hit bad, all bets are off, even if you’re using a big giant cartridge. Most people wouldn’t disagree with the meat of this statement as written, but it doesn’t keep traditional dogma and feelings from creeping into minds and tainting positions and reasoning.

If you’re anything like me, I’m sure that shot on that bull still haunts you. It sucks.

 

[mt terry d]

They can not count on those hunters to put the bullet where it is supposed to be.

And why might that be?

 

[EdP]

There is SO MUCH that goes into bullet performance and it's results. To paraphrase that because someone watched 20 elk die so he knows what bullet wotks best is naive.

With regard to guides observations, it doesn't matter whether or not they understand why a bullet works or not, only that they see bullets that work and those that don't. Its called "emperical data" and the emperical is where all science starts. Most scientific understanding comes from observing an effect and then figuring out what caused that effect (Newton's apple falling from the tree). The bullet mfgs need to figure out the science. We as hunters just need to know what works. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with understanding the science, but we should acknowledge that we are the data gatherers for the bullet designers.

 

[voltage]

Can you share the video?

I don’t know how to on here.

 

[sndmn11]

I don’t know how to on here.

You can upload to YouTube, and then share as an unlisted link. It won't show up in YouTube search and can a only be accessed by where you share the link to.

 

[voltage]

If you had used your rifle of choice, what could have made the outcome better in your analysis? If both rifles are accurate to a level needed for that shot, what about taking a single shot was different between the two rifles? Sounds like the same thing could have/would have happened with the 6.5.

Did the Outfitter or guide State you had to shoot a 30 caliber or you wouldn't be allowed to hunt? Hanging out around here, it's been stated thousands of times knocked down power is not an issue with respect to most calibers. Its placement and whether the CNS is disrupted.

First and foremost, I made the decision to take the shot. I blame myself for not making it count. I’m just adding an anecdotal story while hoping this airplane flies faster.

Hindsight being 20/20, I would have preferred the rifle I like to shoot better. Undoubtedly, I shoot better with my 6.5 PRC. The impact on this bull was less than ideal, so shooting a gun I shoot better may have made the impact better. We will never know.

If the bull died immediately, I would have been plenty happy with shooting my 300 PRC, and hell, I’d probably tell you that knock down power isn’t something to overlook.

Yes, 30 caliber + only. No check was ever done, though. I’m the paying customer, so rules like that can be circumvented.

 

[BCDJR]

I went on three big game rifle hunts this fall, spending nearly two months with some really great guides. These are guys that spend 5 months a year in the NWT and some that spent 4 months a year in British Columbia. They see more big game animals (moose, goats, caribou, elk and sheep) shot with a rifle in a year than some will see in a lifetime. When you compound that over 5 or 10 years, it makes sense to listen close to what they say. I don’t know if it is really beneficial to identify bullets they say consistently perform worse than others or those that consistently impress. I will merely say I learned A LOT from them and their real world experience. I learned a lot from photos they have taken over the years depicting the trauma post shot.

If you are thinking of working up a new load with a new bullet and have a guide friend or two, it might be worth the effort to pick their brain a bit. Yes, there a lot of bullets that will kill. However, I am more convinced now than ever that some just work better than others.

I went on three big game rifle hunts this fall, spending nearly two months with some really great guides. These are guys that spend 5 months a year in the NWT and some that spent 4 months a year in British Columbia. They see more big game animals (moose, goats, caribou, elk and sheep) shot with a rifle in a year than some will see in a lifetime. When you compound that over 5 or 10 years, it makes sense to listen close to what they say. I don’t know if it is really beneficial to identify bullets they say consistently perform worse than others or those that consistently impress. I will merely say I learned A LOT from them and their real world experience. I learned a lot from photos they have taken over the years depicting the trauma post shot.

If you are thinking of working up a new load with a new bullet and have a guide friend or two, it might be worth the effort to pick their brain a bit. Yes, there a lot of bullets that will kill. However, I am more convinced now than ever that some just work better than others.

How dare you take some pointers from men who work in the field, Don’t you know you are only supposed to listen to the Internet and guys who shoot targets..or maybe deer? You points are good ones but soon as you posted the Bat signal went out to the haters.

 

[Chris in TN]

Still waiting on that shale-armored goat video.

 

[35WhelenAI]

First and foremost, I made the decision to take the shot. I blame myself for not making it count. I’m just adding an anecdotal story while hoping this airplane flies faster.

Hindsight being 20/20, I would have preferred the rifle I like to shoot better. Undoubtedly, I shoot better with my 6.5 PRC. The impact on this bull was less than ideal, so shooting a gun I shoot better may have made the impact better. We will never know.

If the bull died immediately, I would have been plenty happy with shooting my 300 PRC, and hell, I’d probably tell you that knock down power isn’t something to overlook.

Yes, 30 caliber + only. No check was ever done, though. I’m the paying customer, so rules like that can be circumvented.

Everybody misses a shot if they hunt long enough. It's part of the game, if you will. Good on you for sharing. Next time around take what you want to shoot and that you have confidence to shoot the best.

 

[35WhelenAI]

With respect to shooters coming into the game now that are posting on this forum, I suspect they didn't start out with a 22 Rimfire then move on to a small caliber centerfire like a 243, move up to a 30-30, 300 Savage, .308 Win, 270 or 30-06, etc. Seems guys start with a lower small bore with lighter recoil and as soon as something heavier is shot they have decided they're not capable of shooting it.

Capable is as capable does, and higher ballistic coefficient / sectional density bullets and smaller cases/suppressors are a different game than when I was growing up.

Most from my generation learned to shoot rifles that were legal with a respect to caliber (.223 is not big game legal in Colorado) then pursued the progression to larger cartridges/bore over a number of years as a person matured.

With the right practice and conditioning larger cased cartridges are not as difficult as they are made out to be when taking one shot in the field.

Either way, shooting what you can shoot confidently is the moral and ethical way to go. Just different eras of progressions in practicing and becoming comfortable for the same means to the end.

 

[JohnJohnson]

How dare you take some pointers from men who work in the field, Don’t you know you are only supposed to listen to the Internet and guys who shoot targets..or maybe deer? You points are good ones but soon as you posted the Bat signal went out to the haters.

Do you think the people on here don't really hunt out west?

 

[amassi]

Do you think the people on here don't really hunt out west?

Out east for me, only thing I hunt out west are bluefin, albacore and salmon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[hickswr]

I’m confused….

Do we listen to the guide that says 30-can minimum for elk?

Or the guide that says 77gr TMK will kill most everything?

 

[jimh406]

I’m confused….

Do we listen to the guide that says 30-can minimum for elk?

Or the guide that says 77gr TMK will kill most everything?

Neither. Just listen to the people on rokslide.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I took it to mean that the thread was about bullets and it diverged (me included) to cartridge/caliber. I stay away from frangible bullets no matter what the caliber. That's my experience and sticking to it.

 

[JohnJohnson]

I’m confused….

Do we listen to the guide that says 30-can minimum for elk?

Or the guide that says 77gr TMK will kill most everything?

Well maybe guide #1 hunts areas where the elk have evolved an armor plate that small bullets bounce off. Or, like OP said, the sheep have shale-coating that acts as a bulletproof vest which only Knockdown Power™® and monolithic bullets (maybe steel core would be better?) can penetrate.

 

[Chris in TN]

 

[JohnJohnson]

View attachment 967950

The real conundrum is whether to use a tougher bullet to make it through the shale or to aim for the gaps in the armor.

 

[Tanner]

I’ve been guiding for just over 10 years now and I’d say about 50% of guys call ahead of time to talk rifles, bullets, loads, etc.

I really appreciate that because it builds some trust right off the bat and it’s always fun to BS about it, besides.

most of them hang up when I tell them they need to bring a 338-378 Bee with 300gr SMK’s. But I’m going to keep trying.

Tanner

 

[rookieforever33]

I’m confused….

Do we listen to the guide that says 30-can minimum for elk?

Or the guide that says 77gr TMK will kill most everything?

Listen to yourself. Take everyones experience as a starting point, choose where you think you want to start, try a couple that type and hunt with the most accurate. If you think your shots are going to be past 400-500 yards a softer bullet is usually better as impact velocity is slower. At closer range those soft bullets at higher velocity cause more extensive meat damage, or some say not penetrate far enough. In that case a tougher bullet is preferred by some. Only way to find what you like is by shooting animals. If you need to have more animals try hunting hogs or something similar. I've had fun at a game farm with friends. Its definitely killing, not hunting. But you see some great animals up close, fill your freezer, and learn how bullets work without waiting on seasons or tags.