Listen to guides when loading for big game

[jimh406]

You should always believe only what people here say. They are the experts. If you don't believe it, ask them.

Seriously though, there really isn't any way to prove/disprove most of these theories and techniques. More than one method seems to work.

 

[TaperPin]

This happened this year and it did not come from a guide. I know a lot of people

Yes, that is exactly what this is about. Talk to a guide get his opinion and then evaluate whether it is a trustworthy source. I have encountered both trustworthy and worthless over the years. Here is an example of what I witnessed this year on a goat hunt. A guide that I later concluded told a hunter who was there that ELDMs were not the best bullet for long range shots at goats. His theory was they came apart too quickly when they struck a goat that has a thick winter coat full of ice, shale, dirt etc. He said he had seen them fail on goats several times. THREE days later I watched that same hunter shoot a goat at a long distance with the ELDMs and he hit where it should have killed the goat easily. Broadside shot. That goat was never recovered or found. It did not knock the goat down. You can see the bullet hit on the video. It just did not work as I would have thought. Do ELDMs kill animals? Yes, lots of animals are killed with them according to folks on here. Will I use them on goats in the future? No? Are goats killed with ELDMs? I am sure some are. But, back to my point this guide earned my respect and I would pay attention to what he has to say about bullets.

I can’t think of a single conversation with a guide or outfitter that wasn’t informational in one way or another. The failures are more useful and interesting in many ways.

 

[atmat]

I’ve been on one guided elk hunt in my life. The guides all had 10+ years experience guiding with this outfit and lost their minds when they saw I was using a .223.

They all said that elk absorb 300win mag easy and that I was undergunned. They recommended my partner be ready to follow-up for me if I got a shot. I turned that down.

The same guide encouraged another guy shooting a 300win mag (who had stated that he had never shot past 200 yards) to take a 505 yard cross canyon shot on 7x6. He wounded the elk and they never found it. Outfitter ended his hunt because he drew blood.

My takeaway was that those guides were incredibly dumb despite experience with a reputable outfitter. You should pay them to know the area and find animals.

 

[nobody]

“That’s why I really like the 338 Lapua”
-another guide after watching the shot video

Don’t you mean “338 Loopa?” That’s what most of the “experts” called it when they would come to the gun counter bragging about their ballistic exploits on game, say nothing of the fact that they hit everything poorly first, independent of distance, before finishing it off when they finally catch up to it BuT mUh FoOt PoUnDs SaYs ItS dEaD

Ok, I’m done derailing.









Sense the sarcasm everyone

 

[Wrench]

There is SO MUCH that goes into bullet performance and it's results. To paraphrase that because someone watched 20 elk die so he knows what bullet wotks best is naive.

Take a look at the variables.....twist rate and groove count. Not often discussed but has an effect on depth of etching which may effect how the jacket disrupts.....and velocity differences.

Velocity. Just because it's a 300win doesn't mean it's sending a bullet at the same speed. You could have a couple hundred fps differences between rifles. Is it a big deal?.....well over driving a quick disrupting bullet is bad and under driving a tough bullet is probably even worse.

Animal behavior. If you shoot enough elk you will learn that most die pretty easily....BUT, a moment at the wrong time can put a humerus on a defensive position that foils almost everything short of monster magnums.

People get comfortable based on experience. If you watched 100 animals die from a 180gr 30-06 you would have no problem parroting that it's perfect.....and it is.......

BUT....so is a plethora of others.

I have said it enough times that it probably comes up on a google search, MATCH YOUR BULLET TO YOUR IMPACT VELOCITY. Know animal behavior and anatomy and if you're going to play custom barrels, understand how bore twist, size and groove count effect bullets.

 

[Hydra6]

I went on three big game rifle hunts this fall, spending nearly two months with some really great guides. These are guys that spend 5 months a year in the NWT and some that spent 4 months a year in British Columbia. They see more big game animals (moose, goats, caribou, elk and sheep) shot with a rifle in a year than some will see in a lifetime. When you compound that over 5 or 10 years, it makes sense to listen close to what they say. I don’t know if it is really beneficial to identify bullets they say consistently perform worse than others or those that consistently impress. I will merely say I learned A LOT from them and their real world experience. I learned a lot from photos they have taken over the years depicting the trauma post shot.

If you are thinking of working up a new load with a new bullet and have a guide friend or two, it might be worth the effort to pick their brain a bit. Yes, there a lot of bullets that will kill. However, I am more convinced now than ever that some just work better than others.

So what is the guide approved cartridge and projectile? That could save us a lot of time and money? Can we also get the guide approved rifle and scope combination?

 

[SDHNTR]

View attachment 967570This year, my outfitter demanded I use a 30 caliber rifle for the “knock down power”. I would have preferred to take my 6.5 PRC that I love and shoot the best, but I obliged. I hit an elk high with my 300 PRC at 625 yards, and the elk ran away never to be seen again. It’s my fault, but sure wish that “knock down power” would have worked.

I hit a big bull elk in that same spot years ago with a .338 wm. Knocked him hoofs up and we celebrated thinking we just killed a stud. He went down in thick cover. Hiked up there with recovery and packing gear and all that was there was an indentation in the snow and two tiny specks of blood. We followed his tracks over 2 miles with no more blood. He was killed on the next hunt by someone else and was totally fine.

That said, while I don’t truly believe in knockdown power, common sense tells me there is a logical balance. I’m still not using a .223 for elk hunting when there are better tools (like a 6.5 prc) at my disposal.

 

[TaperPin]

With any and all trades it can be a good skill to learn how to ask probing questions, rather than just try to passively react to what is said or observed. In construction there is a wide variety of professionals of varying abilities that you might only interact with for a few hours, from architects, engineers, inspectors, contractors, sub contractors, worker bees and even well informed clients. I’ve made it a point to ask every one that crosses my path a probing question, mostly to learn something, but it’s often also an intelligence test, and can be a conversation starter and part of good social skills. People love to share what they know with people interested in their opinions.

Running into an outfitter that guides for elk in some open sage known for not being especially windy, simply asking what his personal favorite rifle is for that kind of hunting tells you right away if he dials, cartridge/bullet choice and comfort with long shots, as well as recomendations to clients naturally comes up as well. Gun nuts are quick to talk about rifles, actions, triggers, magazines, custom barrels, gunsmiths, bullets, performance on game, what hasn’t worked so well, and a bunch of stuff.

Another outfitter who hunts timber on horseback personally uses a fairly small caliber in a Browning BLR lever action, with factory cup and core ammo, usually under 200 yards and has a bigger collection of big 6x6 racks than anyone I’ve ever met. I’m not going to take long range rifle advice from him, but he’s the best trophy elk hunter I’ve ever crossed paths with.

Many families in the west have someone who guides in the fall, it’s just not uncommon. We had a couple and they were not gun nuts or particularly good hunters of any kind, got the job because they were unemployed, but they are practical and simply repeat what works. I haven’t taken any advice of any kind they spit out. Still, they can have 100% success on average elk with average shooters just riding around and taking close shots with average rifles.

 

[Hnthrdr]

View attachment 967570This year, my outfitter demanded I use a 30 caliber rifle for the “knock down power”. I would have preferred to take my 6.5 PRC that I love and shoot the best, but I obliged. I hit an elk high with my 300 PRC at 625 yards, and the elk ran away never to be seen again. It’s my fault, but sure wish that “knock down power” would have worked.

That sucks, looked like a decent bull too

 

[voltage]

I hit a big bull elk in that same spot years ago with a .338 wm. Knocked him hoofs up and we celebrated thinking we just killed a stud. He went down in thick cover. Hiked up there with recovery and packing gear and all that was there was an indentation in the snow and two tiny specks of blood. We followed his tracks over 2 miles with no more blood. He was killed on the next hunt by someone else and was totally fine.

That said, while I don’t truly believe in knockdown power, common sense tells me there is a logical balance. I’m still not using a .223 for elk hunting when there are better tools (like a 6.5 prc) at my disposal.

Similar story for me, and I’m confident that bull is still alive. It’s funny to me that when it happens on a big cartridge, elk are tough. If I would have broken the rules and brought my 6.5 PRC, and had the same results…it would have been the gun’s fault.

Moving forward, I’ll be using what I shoot best especially when it’s 156 Bergers.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Similar story for me, and I’m confident that bull is still alive. It’s funny to me that when it happens on a big cartridge, elk are tough. If I would have broken the rules and brought my 6.5 PRC, and had the same results…it would have been the gun’s fault.

Moving forward, I’ll be using what I shoot best especially when it’s 156 Bergers.

Well it’s either elk are armor plated or you just got really really lucky.. always seems to fall one way or another.

 

[voltage]

That sucks, looked like a decent bull too

Indeed, a solid 6x7. I think he was in the 335ish range.

 

[cwitt]

Just to throw my 2 cents in here as a guide, what a lot of you don’t realize is the why behind the statements we make as guides about bullets. The reason you get the answers you do from guides is because of the spectrum we see of hunters, calibers, bullets, shooting ability, preparedness, and lack there of. If every client I ever guided was here on rokslide, was a competent shooter, and at least had a semi-educated “why” behind their choice in caliber/bullet then I am open to just about anything. But that’s just not the reality. The people on this forum are by far the minority of the type of client that guides have experience with. And that experience is driving our recommendations.

Here are a few of the animals I’ve seen shot this year that come to mind:
A yukon moose die on his feet shot once with a 6.8 western - 162gr mono
A bull elk soak up six (very poor) shots from 300prc - 212gr eld-x
A bull elk get anchored with a 6.5cm - 120gr TSX
A cow elk shrug off a 7prc like it was a paint ball - 177gr Hammer
A desert sheep shot three times with a 7prc and 180gr Hybrid targets that were penciling so bad that we couldn’t tell if they were impacts.

And as I type this, I am guiding a client on what many would consider to be the best mule deer tag in the world. He hadn’t shot a rifle in a decade prior to drawing the tag and stopped to shoot a rifle he borrowed from a buddy 9 or 10 times on the way to camp. None of this he shared with me prior to the hunt. Now that he’s here, he’s using my rifle. It’s a .75 moa rifle any day of the week and we were having a hard time getting him on paper. It wouldn’t matter what I recommended to him to bring.

My point in saying all this is that our perspective as guides is jaded by the crazy stuff we see happen. At the end of the day, I really have no preference other than that it’s a gun you’re comfortable shooting. Except when somebody tells me they’re shooting Bergers and/or that their shooting won’t be a problem. Then I just roll my eyes and think here we go again.

 

[HuntHarder]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, with all that Anti-berger talk. I resemble that remark. I agree that guides see majority un prepared hunters vs. prepared, competent hunters. It is actually why I never pursued guiding more seriously. It made hunting no fun and stressful for me.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Just to throw my 2 cents in here as a guide, what a lot of you don’t realize is the why behind the statements we make as guides about bullets. The reason you get the answers you do from guides is because of the spectrum we see of hunters, calibers, bullets, shooting ability, preparedness, and lack there of. If every client I ever guided was here on rokslide, was a competent shooter, and at least had a semi-educated “why” behind their choice in caliber/bullet then I am open to just about anything. But that’s just not the reality. The people on this forum are by far the minority of the type of client that guides have experience with. And that experience is driving our recommendations.

Here are a few of the animals I’ve seen shot this year that come to mind:
A yukon moose die on his feet shot once with a 6.8 western - 162gr mono
A bull elk soak up six (very poor) shots from 300prc - 212gr eld-x
A bull elk get anchored with a 6.5cm - 120gr TSX
A cow elk shrug off a 7prc like it was a paint ball - 177gr Hammer
A desert sheep shot three times with a 7prc and 180gr Hybrid targets that were penciling so bad that we couldn’t tell if they were impacts.

And as I type this, I am guiding a client on what many would consider to be the best mule deer tag in the world. He hadn’t shot a rifle in a decade prior to drawing the tag and stopped to shoot a rifle he borrowed from a buddy 9 or 10 times on the way to camp. None of this he shared with me prior to the hunt. Now that he’s here, he’s using my rifle. It’s a .75 moa rifle any day of the week and we were having a hard time getting him on paper. It wouldn’t matter what I recommended to him to bring.

My point in saying all this is that our perspective as guides is jaded by the crazy stuff we see happen. At the end of the day, I really have no preference other than that it’s a gun you’re comfortable shooting. Except when somebody tells me they’re shooting Bergers and/or that their shooting won’t be a problem. Then I just roll my eyes and think here we go again.

Would be cool if you posted some of the bucks that you found on the best MD tag in the world 4th rifle should be a doozy up the 70 corridor this year!

 

[cwitt]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, with all that Anti-berger talk. I resemble that remark. I agree that guides see majority un prepared hunters vs. prepared, competent hunters. It is actually why I never pursued guiding more seriously. It made hunting no fun and stressful for me.

It is crazy how polarizing they are and what mixed results I’ve seen with them compared to anything else. In all seriousness, I wouldn't go out of my way to recommend them but I have no problem if somebody has confidence in them.

And most days I love this job, but some days it sure does feel like work…

 

[Billy Goat]

So 10 big game animals a year is a bunch?

I have personally seen double digit deer shot in a day, more than once.


I guess lowly whitetail probably die different than those animals people pay a bunch of money to kill tho.

Carry on.

 

[Forkasauras]

variables.....twist rate and groove count. Not often discussed but has an effect on depth of etching which may effect how the jacket disrupts.....

This sounds intersting. Do you more info/links on how rifling effects terminal bullet preformance?

 

[35WhelenAI]

View attachment 967570This year, my outfitter demanded I use a 30 caliber rifle for the “knock down power”. I would have preferred to take my 6.5 PRC that I love and shoot the best, but I obliged. I hit an elk high with my 300 PRC at 625 yards, and the elk ran away never to be seen again. It’s my fault, but sure wish that “knock down power” would have worked.

If you had used your rifle of choice, what could have made the outcome better in your analysis? If both rifles are accurate to a level needed for that shot, what about taking a single shot was different between the two rifles? Sounds like the same thing could have/would have happened with the 6.5.

Did the Outfitter or guide State you had to shoot a 30 caliber or you wouldn't be allowed to hunt? Hanging out around here, it's been stated thousands of times knocked down power is not an issue with respect to most calibers. It's placement and whether the CNS is disrupted.

 

[sndmn11]

You can see the bullet hit on the video. .

Can you share the video?