Leupold Drop Tests

Macintosh

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Form, thanks for the additional info. To answer your question about a shake table test, the table can be set to different magnitudes and frequencies of vibration. Scopes could be tested independent of a rifle and associated mounting, each tested in exactly the same way. It would "normalize" some aspects of testing, although it would not be capable of reproducing some real world effects such as impact to the objective bell or other specific location on a scope that could be significant relative to causing failure.

Shake table tests could be used to establish industry standard ratings for robustness similar to water porosity (IP) ratings for electronic gear. It would push mfgs to publish their ratings and allow consumers to make better informed decisions.
There are lots of standardized and semi-standardized tests in use in various industries to simulate vibration, movement cycles, impacts, and all sorts of other things. To be reproducible and quantitative it would require some sort of standard as you suggested, but there is no reason at all you couldn't utilize an equally standardized impact test.

Regardless, I have a very hard time thinking an industry-wide standardized test that is demanding enough to achieve what you want would be adopted by the very companies you most need to participate. Leupold, Vortex have nothing to gain and the most to lose from participating. I think the best result you could hope to achieve here would be to get general consumers to look for and buy based on independent testing. that incorporates some impact or vibration or whatever into a real-world measure of reliability.

Also from experience, be very wary of any "industry norm" that is lenient-enough that all the companies can agree on it--unless the problem you are trying to address suddenly stops existing (i.e. scopes suddenly stop losing zero), if it isn't failing a good % of the product out there, it isn't a tough-enough standard to actually tell you anything.
I had this exact thing where I used to work--the industry tried to adopt a standardized test for climbing ropes that would be resistant to cutting on sharp rocks. All the manufacturers had different ways they thought it should be done, and different ways they were already testing internally in order to justify a marketing claim without exposing themselves to undue risk. At the end of the day the only test they could agree on was the most-lenient one, and lo and behold virtually every product made by every manufacturer worldwide passed it--it was a functionally useless test that told consumers nothing and only served to give people a false sense of security. Rather than agree on a more rigorous test that might actually provide some consumer benefit, but might exclude some manufacturers products until they invested in some different tech, the industry chose to scrap the whole thing--which was probably better for consumers in that case, but it's a real-world example of where a norm like this was adopted that actually did not provide any clarity or help consumers in any way.
 
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EdP

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Mac, I agree completely. If a standard were to be adopted, I think it would have to be driven by the consumers. What Form has done may be a step to doing that.
 
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Industry consensus standards are just about worthless. They're code for the absolute minimum level of performance that the worst performing company would consider acceptable under the most severe production pressure.
 

huntnful

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My close buddy has had 2 VX5's and a 3.6-18 Mark 5 fail in the last year, with the repair sheets to prove it. Erector systems causing failure to hold zero I believe. I've had 3 leupolds with no issues, and a 5-25 Mark 5 that had a MIL mechanism installed in an MOA scope. I had to send it back twice to get it fixed. It had 105 clicks per rotation instead of 100. I want to love them, because their glass quality and features really are great for the price. But I simply can't put another one on any of my guns now.
 

Formidilosus

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makes sense, thanks. Do you feel that your current battery of drops is encompassing-enough that you capture any failures that might happen through vibration? I guess what I'm ultimately asking is, short of simply having more data, more time and more $ to do testing, if you think the current tests are as good as they are going to be in predicting whether a scope will realistically fail in use or not? Or do you see a opportunity to add to or evolve the test in order to refine the results?

It could always be better. The errors present in the current eval are relatively easy to control for, it can be replicated, and once ten to twelve of the same scopes have been used, it’s probably near a 90% confidence factor for any given outcome. As it sits with the 3k plus round portion, it’s very indicative of what to expect from real use, from what I’ve seen.

The tests that could be improved are all in how much confidence someone seems acceptable to them. If 50% confidence that the scope will hold zero and not fail under normal use is good enough for someone- quite a few scopes could pass that. If however a 95% confidence is desired, very, very few scopes would pass. The higher you push that confidence factor, the more scopes most be tested and the more involved the testing must be.
 

PanhandlePilgrim

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I was resistant to Nightforce. I tried about every major brand out there including a Mark 5 over the last 10 years and the only scope I haven't replaced with a nightforce so far has been a Tract Toric. The Mark 5 failed and it never saw a hard drop, but it did experience some bumpy atv rides.
 

z987k

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I was resistant to Nightforce. I tried about every major brand out there including a Mark 5 over the last 10 years and the only scope I haven't replaced with a nightforce so far has been a Tract Toric. The Mark 5 failed and it never saw a hard drop, but it did experience some bumpy atv rides.
I really like their brand, but I've never bought one because I'm not a fan of adding a pound to a hunting rifle, that I just paid a lot of money to knock ounces off.
And 2, which is related to 1, most of their scopes are illuminated and have, imo excessive objective sizes or wildly excessive zoom. Nothing for the mountain hunter.
 

Axlrod

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I really like their brand, but I've never bought one because I'm not a fan of adding a pound to a hunting rifle, that I just paid a lot of money to knock ounces off.
And 2, which is related to 1, most of their scopes are illuminated and have, imo excessive objective sizes or wildly excessive zoom. Nothing for the mountain hunter.
I was for a long time of the same mindset. But over time I have changed my mindset. My question to myself became " why put a lot of money into a rifle, and then put a scope on it that cant do the ONE thing I am asking it to do?"
Last year I had a new gun built with a Bat Vampire aluminium action, Bartlein carbon barrel and a Mcmillon edge fill stock. I saved ounces so I could use a scope I had confidence in- a NF Atacr. It weighs 10 lb, and is certainly not for everyone, but I know when I need it to work it will.
 

huntnful

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I was for a long time of the same mindset. But over time I have changed my mindset. My question to myself became " why put a lot of money into a rifle, and then put a scope on it that cant do the ONE thing I am asking it to do?"
Last year I had a new gun built with a Bat Vampire aluminium action, Bartlein carbon barrel and a Mcmillon edge fill stock. I saved ounces so I could use a scope I had confidence in- a NF Atacr. It weighs 10 lb, and is certainly not for everyone, but I know when I need it to work it will.
I have the same thought process now also. Lighten up the gun, so I can put a durable scope on it. With durability comes weight. I've been using March and have been happy so far.
 

ChrisAU

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I really like their brand, but I've never bought one because I'm not a fan of adding a pound to a hunting rifle, that I just paid a lot of money to knock ounces off.
And 2, which is related to 1, most of their scopes are illuminated and have, imo excessive objective sizes or wildly excessive zoom. Nothing for the mountain hunter.

NXS 2.5-10x42 is 20 oz and I could take it and beat a few dozen Leupolds to pieces with it and put it back on the rifle and it be fine.
 

PanhandlePilgrim

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I really like their brand, but I've never bought one because I'm not a fan of adding a pound to a hunting rifle, that I just paid a lot of money to knock ounces off.
And 2, which is related to 1, most of their scopes are illuminated and have, imo excessive objective sizes or wildly excessive zoom. Nothing for the mountain hunter.
Not sure where you're from but most guys that swear by NF spend a lot of time in the mountains, i live in the mountains and spend 20 days under a backpack every year and I can tell you if 10 oz of scope brakes you on a mountain hunt you shouldn't have been on the mountain to begin with.
 

z987k

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Not sure where you're from but most guys that swear by NF spend a lot of time in the mountains, i live in the mountains and spend 20 days under a backpack every year and I can tell you if 10 oz of scope brakes you on a mountain hunt you shouldn't have been on the mountain to begin with.
Then you carry a 15lb gun mountain hunting right?
We pay all this money for light mountain guns that come in under 6lbs and then you add the entirety of it back with a scope? Really? That's like lighting $1000 on fire.
If you're not concerned with 10oz in a backpack then you're entirely not concerned about weight.

My sheep/goat rifle weighs 7lbs with 4 rounds in it and a suppressor on it. I couldn't imagine it weighing much more and calling it a mountain gun. I'm toying with taking the suppressor off since those shots are rarely quick enough that I don't have all the time in the world to put ear pro in. There's a lot of money in that gun and the idea of adding 10oz is difficult, mostly because of what it cost to make it 7lbs in the first place.
 

amassi

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Then you carry a 15lb gun mountain hunting right?
We pay all this money for light mountain guns that come in under 6lbs and then you add the entirety of it back with a scope? Really? That's like lighting $1000 on fire.
If you're not concerned with 10oz in a backpack then you're entirely not concerned about weight.

My sheep/goat rifle weighs 7lbs with 4 rounds in it and a suppressor on it. I couldn't imagine it weighing much more and calling it a mountain gun. I'm toying with taking the suppressor off since those shots are rarely quick enough that I don't have all the time in the world to put ear pro in. There's a lot of money in that gun and the idea of adding 10oz is difficult, mostly because of what it cost to make it 7lbs in the first place.
If only you could hunt with a 7# nightforce equipped hunting rifle.
If I put an nxs 2.5-10 on there I'd be 6#14oz.
1affc756515d090404347bce3b7914f2.jpg


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z987k

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I was for a long time of the same mindset. But over time I have changed my mindset. My question to myself became " why put a lot of money into a rifle, and then put a scope on it that cant do the ONE thing I am asking it to do?"
Last year I had a new gun built with a Bat Vampire aluminium action, Bartlein carbon barrel and a Mcmillon edge fill stock. I saved ounces so I could use a scope I had confidence in- a NF Atacr. It weighs 10 lb, and is certainly not for everyone, but I know when I need it to work it will.
I mean 10lbs is fine, just not in the mountains.
The Bat actions are relatively heavy, especially for aluminum. Carbon barrels weigh more than steel and McMillion does not make the lightest stock.
If you worry about the ounces, your whole pack becomes many pounds lighter.

I took this same approach when I built my airplane, and to my knowledge I have the lightest example in existence. The result is it performs better than everyone else's and carries significantly more to. Not a single extra washer where it's not needed. Not 1 thread too many on any bolt, not a single wire over the required thickness. The result is it's over 100lbs lighter than the next closest.
 

z987k

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If only you could hunt with a 7# nightforce equipped hunting rifle.
If I put an nxs 2.5-10 on there I'd be 6#14oz.
1affc756515d090404347bce3b7914f2.jpg


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If I took my suppressor off I'd be at 6lbs 5oz.

I'll have to look at that scope. Never had that low of power for longer shots.
 

amassi

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If I took my suppressor off I'd be at 6lbs 5oz.

I'll have to look at that scope. Never had that low of power for longer shots.
On deer size game I like 1x/100 yards. I would guess you have some spotter to age class your sheep so the 10x scope wouldnt be a hindrance.

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PanhandlePilgrim

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Then you carry a 15lb gun mountain hunting right?
We pay all this money for light mountain guns that come in under 6lbs and then you add the entirety of it back with a scope? Really? That's like lighting $1000 on fire.
If you're not concerned with 10oz in a backpack then you're entirely not concerned about weight.

My sheep/goat rifle weighs 7lbs with 4 rounds in it and a suppressor on it. I couldn't imagine it weighing much more and calling it a mountain gun. I'm toying with taking the suppressor off since those shots are rarely quick enough that I don't have all the time in the world to put ear pro in. There's a lot of money in that gun and the idea of adding 10oz is difficult, mostly because of what it cost to make it 7lbs in the first place.
I get what you are saying with for a sheep rifle, i guess our ideas of a "Mountain" rifle are different. I've never been to Alaska to hunt sheep or goats, but I have spent a lot of time in sheep and goat country I can tell you if I do make it up there my rifle will have a nightforce as the success of that hunt could be absolutely ruined by a scope that doesn't perform. Some things just aren't worth saving weight on and I feel a scope is one of those things you should lean to side of durability.
 

ljalberta

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If I took my suppressor off I'd be at 6lbs 5oz.

I'll have to look at that scope. Never had that low of power for longer shots.
My mountain rifle is 6lbs 12oz with a 21oz SWFA. The NF NXS would be about 1 oz lighter.

I know some with the NF scopes whose rifles sit at 6lb 3oz. I shave weight on my rifle so that I can carry a reliable scope.

I have some scopes that go to 12x for hunting but, really I don’t think you need more than 6x to make solid shots at pretty significant distances on game. I don’t shoot at game at 1000 yards personally though.

YMMV
 
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Then you carry a 15lb gun mountain hunting right?
We pay all this money for light mountain guns that come in under 6lbs and then you add the entirety of it back with a scope? Really? That's like lighting $1000 on fire.
If you're not concerned with 10oz in a backpack then you're entirely not concerned about weight.
I'd carry a reliable 15 lb gun anytime in the mountains. My current rifle is right at 12lbs all in. I have not had any issue in the mountains with it. But I like reliable guns that i can bang up and not worry about. Everybody has a preference i guess.
 
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