Let's talk arrow setups...

[Outwest]

After being frustrated with inconsistent arrow performance, I purchased the OnTarget2 software and found that i am severely underspined, so I am in the process of completely revamping my arrow setup.

I wanted to get some input from you guys who may have more experience than I. Im shooting a BT Insanity CPX at 30"/65lbs, with a 457gr easton axis 340 at around 303 fps, with a 13.6 FOC. This comes out on the weak side of the spectrum and has caused some tuning issues for me.

I listened to John Dudley's podcast with Randy Ulmer (well worth an hour of your time BTW, Podcast #3 in the series on iTunes) and they discussed arrow setups near the end. Ulmer discusses how FOC and spine incorporate into his shooting setup. He shoots a very stiff arrow around 500grs. He claims that you cannot shoot an arrow too stiff in a hunting situation. I consider Ulmer as a bowhunting idol anyway, so I'm likely to follow anything that comes from that guy.

My question to you all, is what arrow setups do you run with and why? How in depth have you gone into your arrow setup and what works best for you?

 

[Terrapin]

After being frustrated with inconsistent arrow performance, I purchased the OnTarget2 software and found that i am severely underspined, so I am in the process of completely revamping my arrow setup.

I wanted to get some input from you guys who may have more experience than I. Im shooting a BT Insanity CPX at 30"/65lbs, with a 457gr easton axis 340 at around 303 fps, with a 13.6 FOC. This comes out on the weak side of the spectrum and has caused some tuning issues for me.

I listened to John Dudley's podcast with Randy Ulmer (well worth an hour of your time BTW, Podcast #3 in the series on iTunes) and they discussed arrow setups near the end. Ulmer discusses how FOC and spine incorporate into his shooting setup. He shoots a very stiff arrow around 500grs. He claims that you cannot shoot an arrow too stiff in a hunting situation. I consider Ulmer as a bowhunting idol anyway, so I'm likely to follow anything that comes from that guy.

My question to you all, is what arrow setups do you run with and why? How in depth have you gone into your arrow setup and what works best for you?

I agree that it is difficult to go overspined on a hunting arrow on a modern compound bow. A slightly weaker spine will sometimes make an outdoor target bow more forgiving since the arrow comes up off of the rest during the shot cycle, but indoors everyone is shooting drastically overspined arrows. For fixed blade broadheads I generally jump one spine increment. For instance if the charts tell me 400, I will jump up to a 340. I generally only shoot 62 lbs with a 27 inch arrow, so I go between a 400 spine arrow and a 340 spine arrow. For elk I use the stiffer spine and increase my point weight as much as possible to increase FOC and mass weight. If you already have the 340 arrows, it is possible to increase the spine by cutting down the arrows and using some sort of overdraw mechanism. This also has the advantage of having a less cumbersome of an arrow, but with those arrows you are going to end up needing to drop to about a 27" shaft with 100 grains up front which would make a finished arrow of only 380 grs. At the end of the day, form and the tune of the bow have the largest impact on broadhead flight, but a stiffer arrow will definitely improve what you have going on.

If I was setting it up I would go with a 29 inch Goldtip Kinetic 300 with a 125 gr point at 62 lbs. This should be optimally spined and shoot around 290 fps. Much faster than that and fixed blade broadheads get more critical to control, and at 473 grs you will have no issues with penetration.

 

[desertcj]

After being frustrated with inconsistent arrow performance, I purchased the OnTarget2 software and found that i am severely underspined, so I am in the process of completely revamping my arrow setup.

I wanted to get some input from you guys who may have more experience than I. Im shooting a BT Insanity CPX at 30"/65lbs, with a 457gr easton axis 340 at around 303 fps, with a 13.6 FOC. This comes out on the weak side of the spectrum and has caused some tuning issues for me.

I listened to John Dudley's podcast with Randy Ulmer (well worth an hour of your time BTW, Podcast #3 in the series on iTunes) and they discussed arrow setups near the end. Ulmer discusses how FOC and spine incorporate into his shooting setup. He shoots a very stiff arrow around 500grs. He claims that you cannot shoot an arrow too stiff in a hunting situation. I consider Ulmer as a bowhunting idol anyway, so I'm likely to follow anything that comes from that guy.

My question to you all, is what arrow setups do you run with and why? How in depth have you gone into your arrow setup and what works best for you?

30"draw should put you at about a 29" arrow? I don't think a 29" 340 spine arrow is under spined at 65lbs. I'm shooting a 28" 400 spine at 62lbs. Both are right on the edge, but you are on the stiffer/safer side of the chart.

 

[PhillyB]

I spend a lot of time on my arrows. Why have a super tuned bow shooting crappy arrows?

The best results I have come across is stiff spined arrows with 125 grain fixed head and 4 fletch at the back. They are heavy and the extra weight up front has improved FOC and they fly great. I am only shooting about 280 FPS, but at close to 500g, penetration is not a problem. I shoot Exodus heads with this setup and the variation from field tip at 60+ yds is minimal.

It took me about three years to figure all this out, but I am extremely happy with the results. Just my 2 cents

 

[Outwest]

30"draw should put you at about a 29" arrow? I don't think a 29" 340 spine arrow is under spined at 65lbs. I'm shooting a 28" 400 spine at 62lbs. Both are right on the edge, but you are on the stiffer/safer side of the chart.

I have a 29.5" arrow now. I'm not sure, but I think the rub comes in at the insanity's can system. I think that's why OT2 says I am way under spined.
I saw that Easton just came out with a .260 spine axis. I have been thinking about running these with a 29" shaft and 150 grs. Up front. Anyone use the .260s yet?

 

[Coyote Commander]

Whats on the back of your arrow? And what weight heads are you shooting?

I wouldnt think at only 65 lbs you shouldnt be "severely underspined", even with a 30" draw and "normal" point weight. If youre not already using them, a long 7" wrap and 4" vanes should add some tail weight and stiffen you up some. Of course, it will be at the cost of FOC.

If youre shooting 125gr points and brass inserts, than ya, you need to jump up a spine, or two.


Also, are you dead certain youre a 30" draw? A lot of guys are drawing to long.



I dont trust Eastons spine charts. I can tell you from personal experience, they recommend a 340 spine for my specs and I NEED a 300. But I shoot 70 lbs at 29" with high FOC.


Im going back to 4" vanes which will bring my FOC back down to about 15%. I was a tad higher running blazers, but I just get much better stabilization with a strong helical fletched 4" vane, even with a slightly lower FOC. I shoot Easton Epic 300s with 100 gr points and a custom stainless insert (65...ish grains).

 

[Outwest]

Whats on the back of your arrow?

I wouldnt think at only 65 lbs you shouldnt be "severely underspined", even with a 30" draw. If youre not already using them, a long 7" wrap and 4" vanes should add some tail weight and stiffen you up some. Of course, it will be at the cost of FOC.


Also, are you dead certain youre a 30" draw? A lot of guys are drawing to long.



I dont trust Eastons spine charts. I can tell you from personal experience, they recommend a 340 spine for my specs and I NEED a 300. But I shoot 70 lbs at 29" with high FOC.


Im going back to 4" vanes which will bring my FOC back down to about 15%. I was a tad higher running blazers, but I just get much better stabilization with a strong helical fletched 4" vane, even with a slightly lower FOC. I shoot Easton Epic 300s with 100 gr points and a custom stainless insert (65...ish grains).

I just have 3 helical blazers on the back. I am shooting 30" and could probably shoot longer if the Insanity would do it.
Even if I put more weight onto the back, I still think they won't be stiff enough IMO because i am using 50 gr. brass inserts and 100 gr. heads. I don't really want to give that up due to the FOC.

 

[Travis Bertrand]

John Dudley is like Aron Snyder, they both like to spend my money!

My arrow setup pretty much matches Darin coopers,

A/c injexions 330 with flex fletch 3.5" vanes and vap penetrator 2 gold insert/outserts.

Ot2 is a valuable tool and helps a bunch with finding the right spine.

 

[Craig Van Arsdale]

I base my spine selections off of Ot2. I'm shooting a 511 gr GT 100 .250 spine with 125 gr heads and 4 fletch vane techs. My FOC isn't super high but with the heavy weight and four fletch I'm pretty happy with the flight I get.

 

[BackcountryMT]

I am currently shooting a 27" GT7595. 50grn insert weight behind the insert and a 125grn head up front. 3x3" fusions in the back for a total weight of 472 grains. I'm shooting an Agenda 6 67#@27.5". The bow loves the arrows.

 

[Outwest]

I base my spine selections off of Ot2. I'm shooting a 511 gr GT 100 .250 spine with 125 gr heads and 4 fletch vane techs. My FOC isn't super high but with the heavy weight and four fletch I'm pretty happy with the flight I get.

Glad you mentioned your fletching set up as well. On the podcast, Randy was talking about how he shoots very small fletchings on his arrows to minimize wind drift and maximize FOC. I have personally always only shot 3 helical blazers so I don't have any experience with other vane setups.
Do you think there are enough benefits of a 4 fletch setup vs. a 3 fletch setup on a heavier arrow in terms of wind drift and stabilization?
I ask because I am thinking about running 4 fletch aae max hunters or the smaller aae pro max on my new setup.

 

[Coyote Commander]

I just have 3 helical blazers on the back. I am shooting 30" and could probably shoot longer if the Insanity would do it.
Even if I put more weight onto the back, I still think they won't be stiff enough IMO because i am using 50 gr. brass inserts and 100 gr. heads. I don't really want to give that up due to the FOC.

If you dont want to give FOC (and I dont blame you for not wanting to), than you'll have to step up to a .300 spine shaft. Or stiffer if youre planning on hanging 175-200 grains on the front.

Thats something the "handy" little spine charts on the back of arrow boxes never take into consideration and why Ive never payed them much attention. You need a lot more info than draw weight and arrow length to figure out your ideal spine.

 

[Craig Van Arsdale]

Glad you mentioned your fletching set up as well. On the podcast, Randy was talking about how he shoots very small fletchings on his arrows to minimize wind drift and maximize FOC. I have personally always only shot 3 helical blazers so I don't have any experience with other vane setups.
Do you think there are enough benefits of a 4 fletch setup vs. a 3 fletch setup on a heavier arrow in terms of wind drift and stabilization?
I ask because I am thinking about running 4 fletch aae max hunters or the smaller aae pro max on my new setup.

I personally do but i am by no means an expert. I just feel that my BH flight at distance with fixed heads is better than it was with three fletch. I also like that I can grab an arrow and knock it with out ever lolling at it to worry about cock vane orientation.

 

[Jtelarkin08]

I think those programs are only good to a certain point. There is no way your under spined with a 29.5 inch arrow shooting 65#.

 

[tipsntails7]

Glad you mentioned your fletching set up as well. On the podcast, Randy was talking about how he shoots very small fletchings on his arrows to minimize wind drift and maximize FOC. I have personally always only shot 3 helical blazers so I don't have any experience with other vane setups.
Do you think there are enough benefits of a 4 fletch setup vs. a 3 fletch setup on a heavier arrow in terms of wind drift and stabilization?
I ask because I am thinking about running 4 fletch aae max hunters or the smaller aae pro max on my new setup.

There is real only one way for you to find out. Fletch some up and shoot them. I suggest shooting them at at least 60 of not 80 yards and see how they group. I did this and saw no actual gain for my setup so I stuck with 3 fletch. If it would have closed my groups up I would have switched

 

[OR Archer]

I think those programs are only good to a certain point. There is no way your under spined with a 29.5 inch arrow shooting 65#.

I definitely agree with this. The programs can not take into account the shooter and their influence on the tune of the bow/arrow set up. Grip, face pressure, type of release, and release technique all play a part in the tuning of a bow. They are a good starting point but are not the end all be all of what will and will not tune.

 

[sneaky]

I think those programs are only good to a certain point. There is no way your under spined with a 29.5 inch arrow shooting 65#.

Yes there is. He's shooting with brass insert and 100 gr head. With an aggressive cam and that much weight up front he would be much better off going up a spine. When he puts a broadhead on it will make it even more noticeable.

 

[sneaky]

John Dudley is like Aron Snyder, they both like to spend my money!

My arrow setup pretty much matches Darin coopers,

A/c injexions 330 with flex fletch 3.5" vanes and vap penetrator 2 gold insert/outserts.

Ot2 is a valuable tool and helps a bunch with finding the right spine.

Just a thought, but have you tried the Firenock outsert that will fit your Injexions? Harder to pull from bag targets but much more durable than the Penetrator outserts. If you have tried them then disregard this lol.

 

[OR Archer]

Yes there is. He's shooting with brass insert and 100 gr head. With an aggressive cam and that much weight up front he would be much better off going up a spine. When he puts a broadhead on it will make it even more noticeable.

His current arrows do not have brass inserts so what he said is correct. If he goes with the brass inserts like he is thinking then yes, a .340 would be a bit weak for his set up.

 

[jmez]

The programs, like the manufacturer charts are a good starting point. Really nothing more. In most cases I would say they are fairly inaccurate. How many people using the programs actually weigh the finished arrow and used the speed measured by a chronograph with that arrow when plugging in the numbers? I'm guessing very very few. If not then you are just plugging random numbers into a computer program. IBO speeds from a manufacturer spec sheet are very unreliable. Coupled with a program that can't take efficiency of a system into account is a recipe for pretty inconsistent results.

If you really want the correct arrows then like everything else in archery you need to test and tune to your system. Get a starting point, buy and build a few, and see how they actually perform.