Let them grow?

[Colejay13]

How do you let deer grow when deer numbers are down but tags are doubled?

 

[go_deep]

Don't buy the tags, or buy them and don't fill them. I haven't filled a deer license in probably 6 years, and it's got nothing to do with me sucking at deer hunting. I apply for and get LQ licenses, and shred them, I do the same for doe antelope.

Just because they give you the license to kill one, doesn't mean you have to go kill one

 

[AHayes111]

The problem with let them grow is most hunters have trouble letting the bucks that are most likely to become big live. The smaller three point is an easy pass. The 26 inch three year old four point that scores 170. Boom.
The key to big deer is more not shooting the nice ones than letting the small ones grow another year.

 

[mt terry d]

If the game management experts we employ at the cost of millions of dollars a year determine the herd in a certain area needs bucks of any size killed shouldn’t we kill them ?

 

[Mike Islander]

On our property it's 8 or more points required to shoot. Simple. Can't do that everywhere.

 

[sndmn11]

You have a good hunt, in your way, and don't worry about what other people kill. I'm convinced that killing young animals makes more space for mature animals to become old.

It also takes the dumb out of the herd when folks are happy, and able, to whack the young one standing next to the road.

 

[Hnthrdr]

You have a good hunt, in your way, and don't worry about what other people kill. I'm convinced that killing young animals makes more space for mature animals to become old.

It also takes the dumb out of the herd when folks are happy, and able, to whack the young one standing next to the road.

Eh not sure about taking the dumb out of the herd, the young ones are dumb period, they just never get the chance to wisen up. It just takes young bucks out of the herd. To each their own though. I have shot a bunch of young bull elk that were young and dumb

 

[sndmn11]

Eh not sure about taking the dumb out of the herd, the young ones are dumb period, they just never get the chance to wisen up. It just takes young bucks out of the herd. To each their own though. I have shot a bunch of young bull elk that were young and dumb

You don't think animals have tendencies and patterns?

My wild guess is that young animals learn from older animals AND their genetic makeup tells them how to live their life. That leads me to believe that if a buck and some does survive long enough hanging out next to the road and create off spring. Their traits on both levels will be passed on and reinforced. Maybe just like a dog being bred for a purpose. Or maybe why folks talk about elk "not rutting". If the bulls that are genetically and conditionally most likely to be vocal are killed, those traits get removed from the gene pool and the bulls that are quieter live on to reinforce those genes.

So if "we" want to grow big bucks, the easiest way to get the little ones older is by reinforcing the traits that make them hard to kill; by killing the ones that don't care about their safety. <----again, my wild logic

 

[Hnthrdr]

You don't think animals have tendencies and patterns?

My wild guess is that young animals learn from older animals AND their genetic makeup tells them how to live their life. That leads me to believe that if a buck and some does survive long enough hanging out next to the road and create off spring. Their traits on both levels will be passed on and reinforced. Maybe just like a dog being bred for a purpose. Or maybe why folks talk about elk "not rutting". If the bulls that are genetically and conditionally most likely to be vocal are killed, those traits get removed from the gene pool and the bulls that are quieter live on to reinforce those genes.

So if "we" want to grow big bucks, the easiest way to get the little ones older is by reinforcing the traits that make them hard to kill; by killing the ones that don't care about their safety. <----again, my wild logic

I agree to a point about genetics, but some of what you talked about is learned traits. Also aren’t the majority of younger animals/ humans dumb/ inexperienced? Think about it. Were you a genius in middle/ high school? Some of the most successful people I know today were idiots. To that point as well the rut makes even the biggest and wileyest animals really dumb. I don’t think dropping all the 1.5 year olds near a road is really cleansing the gene pool of dummies. Think about how dumb spike elk are? Killing them isn’t making it easier to find mature bulls, there are just less. Which is fine the limits are set by the biologist for carrying capacity. What we are disagreeing on is pure nature vs nurture. I think it’s more of a mix of both than purely genetic

 

[sndmn11]

I agree to a point about genetics, but some of what you talked about is learned traits. Also aren’t the majority of younger animals/ humans dumb/ inexperienced? Think about it. Were you a genius in middle/ high school? Some of the most successful people I know today were idiots. To that point as well the rut makes even the biggest and wileyest animals really dumb. I don’t think dropping all the 1.5 year olds near a road is really cleansing the gene pool of dummies. Think about how dumb spike elk are? Killing them isn’t making it easier to find mature bulls, there are just less. Which is fine the limits are set by the biologist for carrying capacity. What we are disagreeing on is pure nature vs nurture. I think it’s more of a mix of both than purely genetic

Yeah, you know I was a genius even before middle school.

Do you think the Estes park gene pool still carries strong traits of weary elk? Or when folks complain that wolves were taken from packs that prey on livestock and put in CO the same concept applies.

I think when you mix genetics that are less apt to be afraid of people with conditions that foster those behaviors, those traits get reinforced. I'd say the same goes for when animals get fed as part of wildlife office winter feeding programs; they are only strengthening the genes and behaviors that lack fear of people.

If you have a buck that Is bred by a reclusive buck and raised by a weary doe that finds a hidey hole and moves at the first sign of a person, I think there's a much better chance that buck ends up living longer than the opposite. So if there's X amount of tags and a certain percentage gets filled, I'd rather see people stick the ones who lack survival skills if the goal is to make some portion of the population grow older.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I think if you let people hunt the park it would take all of about 3 days for the elk to push way the heck out of eyesight and start acting like elk. They have only been habituated via learning, they still know how to be elk.

The wolves you talked about came from a pack where they learned that livestock were easy targets taught traits.

Geographically yes the does or cows will influence survivability via hey I live here and migrate there and those places are remote or hard to access, but because we punched roads all over the mountains doesn’t mean we will have genetically superior animals away from roads, buddy killed a 180 inch 3x4 last year after stepping out of his truck, and the buck he was fighting with was even bigger. Know of a 220 buck that was shot from a road during second rifle…. The theory of the big ones are never near roads… doesn’t really add up.

 

[huntsd]

Start hunting whitetail and elk

 

[TaperPin]

With point restrictions, more people are in the field longer, which I’m not a fan of. Forcing a meat hunter to take an older deer doesn’t make sense to me.

I suppose it comes down to how many licenses you want to sell for a given area.

I focus on getting one old deer and don’t pay much attention to averages, or number of licenses, or draw odds. Genetics is number one, followed by difficult to hunt to weed out most people.

 

[LostWapiti]

My personal belief is that passing on nice bucks is basically just grandstanding. If you don’t shoot that deer then someone else probably will. Stop acting like you are god and your almighty decision will change the future. Now we can encourage everyone to change their behavior and that would be effective but to be realistic that just won’t happen. If you want to make a difference then get involved in conservation and lobby your game commission to control harvest in a way to promote the growth of big deer.

 

[willfrye027]

I would like everybody else to let them grow a few years, especially the ones close to the road. When it’s my turn I want to see lots of big bucks, preferably next to the road. Is that too much to ask?

 

[waspocrew]

Personally, I want to hold out for a mature buck, so if I don’t see one, I’m fine not filling my tag. I won’t knock another hunter’s decision to shoot a small buck though.

 

[Lawnboi]

Want bigger bucks? Super easy.

Shut down half the roads through their habitat. Especially lower range where they rut and winter.

Food
Water
Sanctuary

Or hunters can just keep bickering with each other. That’s not getting us anywhere.

 

[Jethro]

If the state issues me a tag, I try to fill it. I don't play biologist. As for size/age, I like to kill what is legal and makes me happy. I expect all of you to do the same.

 

[LostWapiti]

Want bigger bucks? Super easy.

Shut down half the roads through their habitat. Especially lower range where they rut and winter.

Food
Water
Sanctuary

Or hunters can just keep bickering with each other. That’s not getting us anywhere.

Love this, closing roads is such an easy solution that helps the animals. I love nothing more than a locked gate with walk in access.

 

[LostWapiti]

I think if you let people hunt the park it would take all of about 3 days for the elk to push way the heck out of eyesight and start acting like elk. They have only been habituated via learning, they still know how to be elk.

The wolves you talked about came from a pack where they learned that livestock were easy targets taught traits.

Geographically yes the does or cows will influence survivability via hey I live here and migrate there and those places are remote or hard to access, but because we punched roads all over the mountains doesn’t mean we will have genetically superior animals away from roads, buddy killed a 180 inch 3x4 last year after stepping out of his truck, and the buck he was fighting with was even bigger. Know of a 220 buck that was shot from a road during second rifle…. The theory of the big ones are never near roads… doesn’t really add up.

During the rut, the big ones will be near roads 100%. Most caution goes out the window in November.