Leica Geovid R - EHR frustration

[Antares]

Looking for some suggestions here. I've been using the Leica Geovid R 10x42s for two or three years now. I really, really like them except for one thing.

When they are in EHR mode... THEY SHOULD ONLY DISPLAY THE EHR RANGE... or at least show the EHR range first and then show the linear/LOS range second.

But, no. They display the LOS range first and the EHR range 2 seconds later. I try to drill myself into remembering to wait for the EHR range, but sometimes I forget, especially when things get "exciting." I do a lot of alpine hunting, so a lot of high angle shooting where the diff between LOS and EHR matters.

I did it yesterday. I'm a little rusty because I haven't shot much over the winter, so that's on me, but I was out shooting one of my plates and I dialed for 340 yards instead of 330 yards because I forgot to wait for the EHR to display. I still hit the plate, but that's not the point.

I don't remember what episode, but I think I remember @THLR shooting over the top of a chamois for this exact reason, so at least I'm in good company.

How do I fix this? Anyone got any hot tips, mental tricks, etc.?

 

[THLR]

It's here, right around minute 16.

In my opinion it's shitty engineering and lack of understanding what chain of events the display can trigger. I do not find any scenario where it would be right to show the shooter a false value.

 

[dreamingWest]

I had to upgrade all my Leica rangefinders to Pro models because of this exact issue. Same deal with RF Binos and Compact. You have to buy Pro model to get EHR only.

A simple tweak to fix this and I would wholeheartedly recommend R models to pretty much everyone I know.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Both values are useful, LOS for wind drift (and drag), and EHR for drop. A mental trick would be to think wind first and drop second.

Keep in mind that Leica’s EHR is not just simply the cosine of the shooting angle, but also considers environmental factors (they’re vague on exactly what it does and how they model it, but I assume it adjusts for the drag of the LOS distance and derived air density).

 

[mtnwrunner]

Yeah, it's kind of a pain in the ass but you can get used to it.
You've heard the expression "wait for it......." quite frequently so thats my mantra when pressing the range button. Also gives me a moment to relax if its a hunting situation.
I have both the 10's and the 15's and use them exclusively as well as always ranging stuff when I glass so it's just habit.

Randy

 

[THLR]

I'll still say LOS has little value to the shooter; keep it inside the chip please, don't display it.

In the horisontal plane, EHR and LOS values merge. When the angle is sufficient to be significant, shooters windcall will be different if he's shooting along, across or abeam the valley, wether the valley has U or V shape and if you are shooting from/past/into terrain features or gaps. Sometimes time of day can also affect the shot. (Literature on cross country hanggliding has perhaps the best illustrations)

I use base value wind and +/- that hild depending

 

[Jordan Smith]

In the horisontal plane, EHR and LOS values merge. When the angle is sufficient to be significant, shooters windcall will be different if he's shooting along, across or abeam the valley, wether the valley has U or V shape and if you are shooting from/past/into terrain features or gaps. Sometimes time of day can also affect the shot. (Literature on cross country hanggliding has perhaps the best illustrations)

Very true, and the actual LOS distance that the bullet traverses in the wind is also important, which is why I like to see it.

Ultimately, Leica's display in most models is sadly outdated. There's no reason they can't display both values at the same time. The Max is a step in the right direction.

 

[Antares]

It's here, right around minute 16.

In my opinion it's shitty engineering and lack of understanding what chain of events the display can trigger. I do not find any scenario where it would be right to show the shooter a false value.

Did you find a way to overcome this or do you just not use the Geovid Rs anymore?

Yeah, it's kind of a pain in the ass but you can get used to it.
You've heard the expression "wait for it......." quite frequently so thats my mantra when pressing the range button. Also gives me a moment to relax if its a hunting situation.
I have both the 10's and the 15's and use them exclusively as well as always ranging stuff when I glass so it's just habit.

Randy

I like that, Randy. Thanks! Maybe I'll put a sticker on my binos that says "Wait for it..." Maybe even "Wait for it MF'er!" and a little pic of Samuel L. Jackson to really drive it home. Ha!

Very true, and the actual LOS distance that the bullet traverses in the wind is also important, which is why I like to see it.

Ultimately, Leica's display in most models is sadly outdated. There's no reason they can't display both values at the same time. The Max is a step in the right direction.

I personally do not want to see LOS. I want to see the range that I need to correct elevation for and that's it.

I don't call wind well enough for the diff between EHR and LOS to be meaningful at the ranges and angles I shoot. For example, I just compared two 500 yards shots with my current rifle in my ballistic app, both with full value 5 mph wind: one shot that is flat (0°) and one shot that is high angle (30°). The flat shot wants 3.4 mil of elevation and 0.6 mil of wind; the high angle shot wants 2.8 mil of elevation and 0.5 mil of wind. The diff in elevation (0.6 mil) is meaningful and will cause a miss on deer size vitals, but the diff in wind (0.1 mil) will likely be swamped by the error in my wind call. This is an extreme example (for me), 30° is very steep.

 

[THLR]

Not sure. Last year been so focused on job satisfaction/close stalking that range has been irrelevant.

If I recall names correctly I now have a Leica Geovid Pro 8x32 and Leica Geovid R 15x56.

Ultimately, Leica's display in most models is sadly outdated. There's no reason they can't display both values at the same time. The Max is a step in the right direction.

Absolutely agree with this and the biggest gripe I have with my 8x32 is the display.

Even at the fastest setting it needs 3 seconds to cycle through the display. Shooting the laser is quick enough, but turning it on is fairly slow. It's typically 6-8 seconds before I have the values and I cannot shoot a new laser before it's finished cycling display (if I recall correctly).

I am uncomfortable with exposing myself that long. A herd of red deer on open hill pick me up very fast.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

My down the road geovid 2700 HD-R grossly over compensated ehr mode. Anyone tested theirs against other brands or to just known elevation differences and run the math in a triangle calculator? Made me paranoid about Leica ehr mode and maybe it was a one off? Just passing along.

I just pulled my notes as I added a Sig kilo6k to fleet and used the 6k 8x32 for comparison.

744/701 Leica los/ehr
749.8 sig los, 8 degrees
742.5 sig amr

• Leica 0.08% under sig on los, 5.6% under on amr and so it calculated a 19.5 degree angle, more than double the angle.

1072/994 Leica los/ehr
1081 sig los, 7 degrees
1072 sig amr

• Leica los 0.08% under again and calculated a 22 degree angle or 400 yard elevation difference. Sig calculated 132 yard side a which is the actual ~elevation difference here(~400’) by known river elevation and the hill I live on elevation.
• Trust sig amr and los on Leica, turned Leica ehr off.

Now try not to think about dope not lining up when setting things up long and you were trusting Leica ehr...lesson learned for all Rf’s going forward. Prove angle comp mode is getting the damn angle right.

 

[nm.otter]

A herd of red deer on open hill pick me up very fast.

Distributed processing power + a large number of eyeballs.

 

[Jordan Smith]

My down the road geovid 2700 HD-R grossly over compensated ehr mode. Anyone tested theirs against other brands or to just known elevation differences and run the math in a triangle calculator? Made me paranoid about Leica ehr mode and maybe it was a one off? Just passing along.

I just pulled my notes as I added a Sig kilo6k to fleet and used the 6k 8x32 for comparison.

744/701 Leica los/ehr
749.8 sig los, 8 degrees
742.5 sig amr

• Leica 0.08% under sig on los, 5.6% under on amr and so it calculated a 19.5 degree angle, more than double the angle.

1072/994 Leica los/ehr
1081 sig los, 7 degrees
1072 sig amr

• Leica los 0.08% under again and calculated a 22 degree angle or 400 yard elevation difference. Sig calculated 132 yard side a which is the actual ~elevation difference here(~400’) by known river elevation and the hill I live on elevation.
• Trust sig amr and los on Leica, turned Leica ehr off.

Now try not to think about dope not lining up when setting things up long and you were trusting Leica ehr...lesson learned for all Rf’s going forward. Prove angle comp mode is getting the damn angle right.

Keep in mind that Leica’s EHR is not just simply the cosine of the shooting angle, but also considers environmental factors (they’re vague on exactly what it does and how they model it, but I assume it adjusts for the drag of the LOS distance and derived air density).

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I don’t think the geovid 2700 HD-r ehr or the rest of the non ballistic ehr models do any environmental? The Sig does at least in ballistic mode but unsure if it’s needed in amr mode which doesn’t make sense to have atmospherics in amr/ehr mode anyway, you’re only after distances of a triangle so atmospherics play no part until solutions need to be spit out? The first clue I had with Leica was at buddy’s backyard range off his deck and somewhat downhill but not that downhill and Leica was telling me his 400 was 375 on ehr. Wasn’t until I put Sig against it sometime later and tested near house that I learned the Leica was out of whack on its angle assumption. As said could be a one off Leica but a lesson and will verify going forward with any rangefinder that does some internal math and has internal inclinometer(or whatever it uses to get an angle input to use in the math) beyond just the los range itself.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

In my notes above from the head to head test...Do you like the Sig outputs or the Leica outputs for our cities typical atmospherics Jordan? Which would you trust there? Trusting a true cosine verified by bow river elevation to the top of cop hill, or one that more than doubled the actual angle in it’s math...or it has a bum angle gizmo feeding wrong input to the triangle mathulator.

 

[Jordan Smith]

I don’t think the geovid 2700 HD-r ehr or the rest of the non ballistic ehr models do any environmental? The Sig does at least in ballistic mode but unsure if it’s needed in amr mode which doesn’t make sense to have atmospherics in amr/ehr mode anyway, you’re only after distances of a triangle so atmospherics play no part until solutions need to be spit out? The first clue I had with Leica was at buddy’s backyard range off his deck and somewhat downhill but not that downhill and Leica was telling me his 400 was 375 on ehr. Wasn’t until I put Sig against it sometime later and tested near house that I learned the Leica was out of whack on its angle assumption. As said could be a one off Leica but a lesson and will verify going forward with any rangefinder that does some internal math and has internal inclinometer(or whatever it uses to get an angle input to use in the math) beyond just the los range itself.

It does use environmentals, unfortunately, which is why you're seeing what you are. The idea is to output a EHR range you can enter into a ballistic solver at SAC. I wish it just gave true cosine EHR, but it doesn't.

 

[Jordan Smith]

 

[Stinky Coyote]

It does use environmentals, unfortunately, which is why you're seeing what you are. The idea is to output a EHR range you can enter into a ballistic solver at SAC. I wish it just gave true cosine EHR, but it doesn't.

Weird. Well the one test I didn’t do was see what the solution was from Sig in ballistic mode to back math what atmospherics would have said for my current 308 profile and then see what error the ehr output would have been to that but I was comparing them before even loading a profile, pretty well within day or so of getting the Sig. So for guys just rolling data cards how does Leica help? Anyway, just sharing, don’t care, would simply test all units going forward to see what will work for me and what won’t. I sold Leica but would own others as los works fine, I can knock a few yards off mentally if needed but that thing knocked way too many yards off imo.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Yeah I had hd-r so no ballistics, should not have spit out 22 plus degree angle correction for 7 degree angle.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Yeah I had hd-r so no ballistics, should not have spit out 22 plus degree angle correction for 7 degree angle.

Read that again. The HD-R doesn't do holdover or click adjustments, but it does do EHR, which accounts for those variables I highlighted.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Go figure, I've apparently been using mine for years in LOS only.