Layering Up In Down Bag

[Kevin_t]

Definitely get a vapor barrier between you and the down. You don’t want to create condensation inside the bag. After the down gets a little wet it’s useless.

This could be misleading . A vapor barrier helps when the temperature does not reach freezing and there are several days out . Additionally a vapor barrier can be warmer for some , but clammy ...however it can feel warmer .

However if temps in your tent get above freezing very often it is less of a concern . Even if it’s 20 degrees out if the sun hits the tent the tent will be warmer .

Also a little wet and useless would seem to be a bit of an exaggeration . Yes it’s useless in a washing machine but in most cases there may be a small degradation with a some moisture , not entirely useless .

Really in real cold a thin synthetic blanket over a down bag is a pretty solid combo as it just helps move the moisture .

It’s also important to note that moisture on the shell does not always mean that there is moisture inside . For instance The shells on WM bags have a higher waterproof rating than many tents .




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[CBreeze]

Moisture managment is the name of the game 90% of the time especially with temps swinging from upper 20’s into the 40s or 50s. Leave the vapor barrier in the crawl space at home.

 

[bridgermgmt]

I have always had great luck with the microfiber series by wm, in regards to moisture. The shell seems to breath great for my body type. I have woken to find a large amount of moisture on the shell from a hard rain + poor site selection. But I had 0 inside the bag and was warm. I got caught in a storm in my sequoia and was forced to sleep in my bag with slightly wet feet, a thermarest liner and base layers. I wasn’t soaked but I was def wet, like I had been sweating. It was below 20 and I woke dry and with just a very small amount of frost on the toe area. The bag was otherwise dry inside and out. Now I’m not sure that I would do that on the regular, but it worked fine.

I would be careful wearing layers or adding anything to the shell that would reduce breath ability though.

you could call the seek guys and give them all your temps and camping style and I’m sure they’d get you in to something fool proof. I’ve also seen a thermarest liner recently in the classifieds.

lastly, if moisture is a real issue, consider stoves.

 

[Winters Kamp]

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Not tryin to mislead anyone about using a vapor barrier. I use older vintage down bags that do not work as good as the new down bags. I’ve been using a Stephenson vapor barrier liner. It’s a vintage piece of gear that works well with older down bags.

 

[TheCougar]

I would think layering in a bag provides multiple functionality. Rather than bring a 3# 0 degree bag, you can bring a 1.2# 30 degree bag and wear a puffy top and bottom in the bag for a total weight of 3lbs, and be just as warm as the 0 degree bag, plus now you have puffy top and bottom to wear hunting. Chances are you were probably bringing the puffy jacket anyway. I’d argue that you save weight and gain functionality. Can’t speak to the breathability and moisture build up - I am in the process of building a system to try this next year.

 

[bridgermgmt]

I would think layering in a bag provides multiple functionality. Rather than bring a 3# 0 degree bag, you can bring a 1.2# 30 degree bag and wear a puffy top and bottom in the bag for a total weight of 3lbs, and be just as warm as the 0 degree bag, plus now you have puffy top and bottom to wear hunting. Chances are you were probably bringing the puffy jacket anyway. I’d argue that you save weight and gain functionality. Can’t speak to the breathability and moisture build up - I am in the process of building a system to try this next year.

I wouldn’t disagree with you. But I would add this wrinkle in for consideration as your totally right in your thinking but I think this should be an additional what if...

If you build a system the more complicated, the higher your chance of real failure. It’s important to build in stop gaps.

Example:

Based on your above system, what do you do when... it’s 10* and your extra layers are not functional for reasons beyond your control. They were stollen, eaten, burned, soaked, etc. now you have a 30* bag that is going to do little to help you stay warm. It’s not to say you can’t, but now your having to do extra and that is a ripple effect. Before bed your doing push-ups and burning extra calories and needing extra water.

You can see how the dominos begin to fall. All be it that I’m being dramatic. But... I think if you plan for some overlap, within reason, your going to find success.

Maybe go a 20* bag, and add a conservative 5* to bringing layers rather than the actual 10+ it may provide. Then your only paying a small weight/price penalty and closer to the goal. If the layers fail, you have a little easier time staying warm without burning as many extra calories and water.

I’m not a pro, so I’m sure others can chime in on this. But I think this is a good consideration.

 

[tommynealy]

Good info in this post


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[*zap*]

Being cold does suck....something to consider.

 

[Rifleman86]

I wouldn’t disagree with you. But I would add this wrinkle in for consideration as your totally right in your thinking but I think this should be an additional what if...

If you build a system the more complicated, the higher your chance of real failure. It’s important to build in stop gaps.

Example:

Based on your above system, what do you do when... it’s 10* and your extra layers are not functional for reasons beyond your control. They were stollen, eaten, burned, soaked, etc. now you have a 30* bag that is going to do little to help you stay warm. It’s not to say you can’t, but now your having to do extra and that is a ripple effect. Before bed your doing push-ups and burning extra calories and needing extra water.

You can see how the dominos begin to fall. All be it that I’m being dramatic. But... I think if you plan for some overlap, within reason, your going to find success.

Maybe go a 20* bag, and add a conservative 5* to bringing layers rather than the actual 10+ it may provide. Then your only paying a small weight/price penalty and closer to the goal. If the layers fail, you have a little easier time staying warm without burning as many extra calories and water.

I’m not a pro, so I’m sure others can chime in on this. But I think this is a good consideration.

This.

I got into a situation where my puffy top and bottom were soaked. Had I relied on that I would’ve been f$cked. I had a 0 degree WM Kodiak bag and used every bit of it.

I know we are all trying to shave weight, but there are certain redundancies you don’t want to skimp on.

Also, be careful adding to the outside of the bag. I tried to dry out my puffy top and bottom on top of my bag to dry them out. It didn’t work. All it did was trap moisture and get the down in the bag damp. Granted this probably wouldn’t have happened if they were dry, but it’s something to consider.

I had a stove, but it was the SO Cub and didn’t have the capacity to get warm enough to really dry much out, nor did I have anything on the center pole to hang clothes.

I’ve upgraded to a Large U turn stove since and added a bunch of clips to my center pole to dry clothes.

 

[tdot]

The few major problems with building a truly dedicated layering system within a sleep system that I've run into are:

1) Moisture - now this relates to those days/nights where it bounces above and below freezing. If you are crawling into a down bag or quilt with wet gear and then the dew point is somewhere in the middle of the down insulation, your body heat will literally drive your sweat and the moisture from your gear into the middle of your down. 1 night, likely not an issue, 3+ nights then maybe. Can you dry your bag during the day?

This is probably one of the reasons why you see guys mentioning layering up under synthetic not down. I've had a synthetic quilt that would literally drip water when you picked it up, and still stayed warm (ocean sail boat race thru multiple tropical storms, not exactly a typical scenario).

I have layered successfully with down jacket and a WM Antelope, but it was -40c out and we were in a snow cave, so no where near the -40c inside.

2) No backup options. If it takes all the cold weather gear you have to possibly sleep comfortably. In the conditions you expect. What happens if the temps are lower? Windier? Something goes wrong with one piece of the puzzle.

3) it took a surprising amount of clothing to sleep comfortably in 10 degrees colder then a bags rating.

Now I try to wear just enough clothes that I can hit a cold spot in the bag and it wont shock me awake. Or when I have to get out of the bag, again, it wont be shocking to my system. I find it actually easier to cool off a hot sleeping bag if I have my arms out, but they are covered, so not uncomfortable from the cold air.

As someone mentioned earlier. Being cold sucks.

Cold and Hunger are the two things that will end a hunt early. You can be tired, sore and not seeing animals and those are all easier to deal with.

I see lots of guys carry 1 or 2 backups to fire starters. Getting a sleep system that is rated for 10 degrees colder is often a 1/2 pound or less. I'd bet you there are significantly more people on this forum who have had a bad nights sleep due to cold, then needed to use the backup to their backup to start a fire.

 

[CBreeze]

All about the balancing act. What I’ll do for a 3 day 2 night trip often isn’t the same as what I’ll do for 5-7 nights. I (we, any of us) can handle a lot more exposure over a short haul than over a longer trip. 2 nights of being intermittently chilly or waking up with a cold spot and readjusting a few times over night isn’t any kind of deal breaker and doesn’t affect my moral or my productivity, but sleeping chilly for 4 or more nights will really impact my ability to be effective. If it’s going to to be forecasted that nighttime lows of 25 and im in for 5 or more days im looking at a 20 bag and a light blanket as a solid minimum level of sleeping insulation for the trip and I might plus that up (warmer quilt or bag not more layers) depending on the season and the likelihood of it getting colder. The more nights on the ground followed by days spent burning calories and boots- the more important sleeping truly warm and comfortable becomes. Exposure is cumulative like sleep and caloric deprivation. What will work well for a couple days will have you dragging ass or quitting in 4-5 days. When selecting the sleep system I pack- Im considering my effectiveness in the hill moreso than any margin of comfort or safety.

 

[Pigdog]

I regularly sleep in my base layers and am usually nice and warm. Sometimes my feet will get cold and I'll stuff my puffy coat down into the bottom of my bag and sort of nest my feet into it, works like a charm.

 

[willfrye027]

this September I did a backpack hunt with lows in the high teens one night and lots of wind. I had a 30 degree REI magma (I think), a decent sleeping pad R value around 3.8 (older thermarest model so not 100% sure). When it was in the teens I was just barely warm enough wearing Kuiu ultra down pants and Kuiu pro jacket inside the bag. I would not go any colder than that unless there was no wind. The bag by itself was true to its comfort rating of about 40 degrees with just thin synthetic base layers on.

Bringing this bag vs my older 20 degree bag saved me almost a pound. Plus I was going to bring the jacket and pants anyways. If it wasn’t backpacking I will always opt for the colder temp rated bag though!

Also Make sure your sleeping pad is rated to the temps—this can make a huge difference in staying comfortable when it’s cold. A zero degree bag on top of a crappy pad won’t keep you warm down to the temp rating it’s supposed to.

 

[20DYNAMITE07]

Really in real cold a thin synthetic blanket over a down bag is a pretty solid combo as it just helps move the moisture .





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I can attest to this... I paired a Snugpak Jungle Blanket ( a lightweight synthetic blanket sort of like a woobie) with my 20* UGQ quilt this year, and was shockingly warm. An added bonus to the additional warmth was that it kept the down warm, which allowed the moisture to push through easily, and helped keep the down dry.

 

[Kevin_t]

I can attest to this... I paired a Snugpak Jungle Blanket ( a lightweight synthetic blanket sort of like a woobie) with my 20* UGQ quilt this year, and was shockingly warm. An added bonus to the additional warmth was that it kept the down warm, which allowed the moisture to push through easily, and helped keep the down dry.

Exactly

 

[*zap*]

I wonder how a 15 degree down bag would do inside a large 20 degree synthetic bag like a Wiggy's ultra light?

 

[Winters Kamp]

I wonder how a 15 degree down bag would do inside a large 20 degree synthetic bag like a Wiggy's ultra light?

I have an ultralight wiggys and a superlight. Awesome bags!

 

[bridgermgmt]

I wonder how a 15 degree down bag would do inside a large 20 degree synthetic bag like a Wiggy's ultra light?

I would question the efficiency to weight ratio in this scenario. Unless I Am Looking at the wrong model, the ultralight 20* wiggys is 6.5lbs?? Not counting a second down bag. For that kind of penalty I can get a 3.5 or 4.5 lb bag that’s rated to -10 in the wm bristelcone or even a sub 5lb -20* synthetic bag from kifaru. Both have a stellar record. And if it was flexibility your going for, a bristlecone and a woobie or doobie would still weight way less.

 

[*zap*]

I would question the efficiency to weight ratio in this scenario. Unless I Am Looking at the wrong model, the ultralight 20* wiggys is 6.5lbs?? Not counting a second down bag. For that kind of penalty I can get a 3.5 or 4.5 lb bag that’s rated to -10 in the wm bristelcone or even a sub 5lb -20* synthetic bag from kifaru. Both have a stellar record. And if it was flexibility your going for, a bristlecone and a woobie or doobie would still weight way less.

I was not really concerned with weight but how that would work.

Pretty sure that an ultralight is not 6.5#, maybe 4#.

 

[mtwarden]

just one other option maybe folks haven't considered

I carry a light 50 degree Apex quilt, replete with poncho hole. I carry it while hunting for glassing (or an emergency)- it weighs a svelte 12 oz. For glassing it adds a substantial amount of warmth, on it's own for sleeping it's not overly warm (have had it down to 40 a couple of times and wasn't terrible, had it down to freezing and it sucked! )

BUT added to another bag when backpacking, it adds quite a bit of warmth AND being synthetic and layered on the outside it helps keep down drier (and loftier)

anyways for 12 oz, small volume and multi-functional, I've been happy to pack it