last night i tied my first d-loop and learned something in the process.

[boom]

my first attempt was stupid long. rookie move not knowing how long things stretch.

i clipped it and tried it again. perfect. i didnt LOVE my burned ends..so i managed to untie the one crap end, and burned it some more. retie it and it is MORE PERFECT!

i now have a d-loop much shorter than the one my proshop did for me. my nock clears my release and that is about it. i came to full draw, and was blown away. the bow fit better. way better. my peep is slammin perfect. my anchor is solid. i found i could hold at full draw some ridiculously long time. i actually got bored and let down. i never got tired holding my 70lb bow. i bet my shop ties 3/4" d-loops.

i read an internet article last night. they tie the d-loop so it lays parallel with the bow string..then they stretch out the tiny loop. the loop is so small, but apparently makes up for how we all tend to run bows long.

i am going to order up some more d-loop material and retie the loop on my mathews. that thing never really felt like it fit me. and the cam always wanted to take off on me and rip my shoulder up. that d-loop is too long i think.

just an head's up. everything i read says you just need the clearance between plastic nock and your release aide.

 

[squeekieslayer]

depending on your release, a short loop can induce torque on the string. But in general i agree completely.... 90% of the time people are shooting too long of a DL to mil an extra 2 fps out of their bow, then they add an easy to tie, long loop and have a mess on their hands and dont even know it. On my target bows i can feel a difference of 2-3 twists in my bow string... it cant be effecting my dl more that 1/16th-1/8th of an inch, but when i find the sweet spot i mark it every way possible so i can replicate it after i change strings or mess with things.

Joe

 

[jmez]

Knock a half inch off your draw length with your new shorter loop and I would bet it will feel even better.

 

[wapitibob]

Set your draw length to your face/head position and use the loop to set your draw arm position in combination with the release head.
Use needle nose pliers inside the loop then open them to tighten the loop. The inside distance from string to loop is usually around 1/2" for all the guys I shoot with.

 

[JNDEER]

I have always been using this method and have had great success with it.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/technical/196301-how-tie-nocksets-d-loop.html

 

[tipsntails7]

D-loops are used to set your anchor points where you want it within reason obviously. Your DL is your DL, which is why releases touting gaining an inch of draw length is foolishness, it's jut changing your anchor point, your bow draws the same length, unless you change it then you have a bow that no longer fits the shooter.

The need for speed is ruining archers forms around the world.

 

[Craig Van Arsdale]

I have always been using this method and have had great success with it.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/technical/196301-how-tie-nocksets-d-loop.html

Same here!

 

[squeekieslayer]

D-loops are used to set your anchor points where you want it within reason obviously. Your DL is your DL, which is why releases touting gaining an inch of draw length is foolishness, it's jut changing your anchor point, your bow draws the same length, unless you change it then you have a bow that no longer fits the shooter.

The need for speed is ruining archers forms around the world.

and wounding game

Joe

 

[vcb]

I like that instruction for the d loop. Thanks for posting that link.

 

[Rolo]

D-loops are used to set your anchor points where you want it within reason obviously. Your DL is your DL, which is why releases touting gaining an inch of draw length is foolishness, it's jut changing your anchor point, your bow draws the same length, unless you change it then you have a bow that no longer fits the shooter.

The need for speed is ruining archers forms around the world.

Yes, no and maybe. I have different bows set-up with different measured DLs based on what they are set up for. Loop lengths also vary depending on the release and geometry of the bow. Measure to ATA specs, or to the end of the loop, they are al different, some slight, some greater. So, my DL for a specific bow, and a specific application is not the same.

While a bow's DL is what it is and can be manipulated, that does not mean that the bow's DL and the person's DL are the same. Release length and loop length factor into the total DL...not to be confused with the bow's DL. Releases and loops have no affect on the bow's DL.

Yes, ultra short releases and ultra short loops can be used to increase the bow's DL, while maintaining the same over-all DL. But in doing so, a lot of other issues and problems are created that will negatively affect accuracy. Yes, th result is a bow that no longer fits the shooter because the bow's DL was changed to match the change in the release. Assuming the bow's DL was correct to begin with, what should change with short releases is the loop, making it longer.

Like wapitibob said...set the bow's DL properly for form and alignment, without excessive facial contact, and then set the release length and loop length for the anchor...then the person's DL is correct for the application.

 

[OR Archer]

I have always been using this method and have had great success with it.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/technical/196301-how-tie-nocksets-d-loop.html

Im not a fan of this. If I need to move my D-loop during the tuning process I would then need to cut out the tied in nock sets then re-tie everything.

 

[wapitibob]

The first time we started shooting loops, back in the 70's, we set the D loop's position on the string relative to the grip pressure point, found thru aiming. Then set the rest for nock point. Neither the loop nor tied in nock sets move to set the "nock point".

 

[OR Archer]

The first time we started shooting loops, back in the 70's, we set the D loop's position on the string relative to the grip pressure point, found thru aiming. Then set the rest for nock point. Neither the loop nor tied in nock sets move to set the "nock point".

I don't like to move my rest to adjust for high/low tears through paper. I set my rest height so that the center of my arrow runs through the center of the berger hole and leave it there. Any adjustment for nock height I will do it by moving the loop before securing it in place.

 

[tipsntails7]

Yes, no and maybe. I have different bows set-up with different measured DLs based on what they are set up for. Loop lengths also vary depending on the release and geometry of the bow. Measure to ATA specs, or to the end of the loop, they are al different, some slight, some greater. So, my DL for a specific bow, and a specific application is not the same.

While a bow's DL is what it is and can be manipulated, that does not mean that the bow's DL and the person's DL are the same. Release length and loop length factor into the total DL...not to be confused with the bow's DL. Releases and loops have no affect on the bow's DL.

Yes, ultra short releases and ultra short loops can be used to increase the bow's DL, while maintaining the same over-all DL. But in doing so, a lot of other issues and problems are created that will negatively affect accuracy. Yes, th result is a bow that no longer fits the shooter because the bow's DL was changed to match the change in the release. Assuming the bow's DL was correct to begin with, what should change with short releases is the loop, making it longer.

Like wapitibob said...set the bow's DL properly for form and alignment, without excessive facial contact, and then set the release length and loop length for the anchor...then the person's DL is correct for the application.

I'm not talking a bows designated draw length, primes run true with pcx cams, but mathews run at least a half inch long in the z series. I'm talking in a draw board with a tape measure. No matter what my bow I'm a 28 inch draw , the cam could say 29 could say 27 if it measures 28 on the board then it's right for me. Dloop and release have zero to do with your DL. Nock should be under your eye with your head facing forward. A bows ata also has nothing to do with draw length and neither does our release, the length between the crook inbetween your thumb and index finger and your eye does not change.
And as far as setting up bows at different DL's for different things, that makes little to no sense. Whether I'm shooting 3d's, spots or hunting my DL is the same, the loop may change to get my anchor points settled but my DL never changes.

 

[Lukem]

the loop may change to get my anchor points settled but my DL never changes.

I think you just said what Rolo was saying, just different ways/concepts to get there.

 

[squeekieslayer]

I'm not talking a bows designated draw length, primes run true with pcx cams, but mathews run at least a half inch long in the z series. I'm talking in a draw board with a tape measure. No matter what my bow I'm a 28 inch draw , the cam could say 29 could say 27 if it measures 28 on the board then it's right for me. Dloop and release have zero to do with your DL. Nock should be under your eye with your head facing forward. A bows ata also has nothing to do with draw length and neither does our release, the length between the crook inbetween your thumb and index finger and your eye does not change.
And as far as setting up bows at different DL's for different things, that makes little to no sense. Whether I'm shooting 3d's, spots or hunting my DL is the same, the loop may change to get my anchor points settled but my DL never changes.

Not to offend, BUt i kind of disagree with some of these points. First, for ME my dl is different on every bow i shoot. I do not pick a number X, then say all of my bows have to be X inches in DL. I start with something i know is close and then tune how how it holds from there. By the time i have played with my stab weights, cables, tiller, etc... i often have a different DL on every bow. As I mentioned above, when i shoot a bow a lot in a controlled (indoor, level) environment, i can feel 2 twists of dl change and it can change the hold significantly. You are correct, the ata does NOT effect DL, but i find it to be the single most factor that causes my DL do differ. I may be wierd, but to get the same feel from a 40 inch ata target bow as i get from a 31 inch hunting bow with 2 inches less BH, i have a different DL (typically longer for me.) It effects your string angle significantly, which is a very big factor on how a bow "feels." What discipline i am doing effects how i like my dl set too. On a long ata bow shooting field where shots can be extreme uphill i tend to like a slightly shorter do.... yes i know, bend at the hips and it shouldnt be a factor.... maybe i'm wierd haha.

My bows differ from 29.50 to about 30.25 DL depending on the set up. I NEVER say set a DL and move everything else. Allthings held equal, small dl changes are the best way to control how your bow holds and feels.... I do play with loop length, but again, it depends on the way each bow feels. I know that "feel" is a very subjective and vague idea, but the fact is that whatever makes your bow perform best for you is more important than a strict number. "nock under your eye" is extremely subjective and leaves about .75-1 inch of wiggle room.

Joe

 

[boom]

wait..nobody said that there was going to be any MATH.

i am trying to learn.
i came from solocam bows. on that bow, i could mess with running the one cam advanced or retarded and fool with the DL plus/minus probably .25"

on my current bow. call it a two track system. two cams. i was told you fuss with the bow to get DL perfect to spec. in my case, 28". and confirm DW is at spec +a few pounds..and let the rest fall where it may. i read this as..i cannot fuss with DL.

i'll admit. i was amazed at how shortening the loop probably (kicking myself for not measuring the original loop) 3/8th" changed how the bow holds so drastically.

keep it up..i am reading it all.

 

[JNDEER]

boom- sorry i posted a thread about how to tie d-loops. I see now you were just talking about your learning experience.

Im not a fan of this. If I need to move my D-loop during the tuning process I would then need to cut out the tied in nock sets then re-tie everything.

OR- If you have the time could you go through your process for setting them up?

 

[boom]

boom- sorry i posted a thread about how to tie d-loops. I see now you were just talking about your learning experience.

are you kidding me? that exact thread you posted showed me to go back and redo my melted ball ends. mine were on the small side. thanks.

i think that is the thread..i read so many

 

[squeekieslayer]

wait..nobody said that there was going to be any MATH.

i am trying to learn.
i came from solocam bows. on that bow, i could mess with running the one cam advanced or retarded and fool with the DL plus/minus probably .25"

on my current bow. call it a two track system. two cams. i was told you fuss with the bow to get DL perfect to spec. in my case, 28". and confirm DW is at spec +a few pounds..and let the rest fall where it may. i read this as..i cannot fuss with DL.

i'll admit. i was amazed at how shortening the loop probably (kicking myself for not measuring the original loop) 3/8th" changed how the bow holds so drastically.

keep it up..i am reading it all.

ANY change to make to any string/cable/draw stop etc. has an effect on the dl. Cable twisting to advance/retard a cam does not change things as much... but it does.

Every bow and cable/cam system tunes a little differently. Generally I shoot about 150 arrows to shoot in the strings and cables before I even mess with anything. Then I time and sync the cams by twisting the cables, I typically let a few twists out of the string before I do this. I them use the string to get the ATA back to spec. At this point, I check my dl, if it is close I begin the tuning process. Essentially I get everything shot in and set to specs/timed/synced before I begin tuning. Next I use paper/walkback/French/bareshaft/bh tuning depending on what bow I am setting up. Most of the time, new bows only take a small amount of goofing with them to get them perfect... and typically not perfectly on spec.

I then twist the string to adjust the DL and play with weights/balance and tiller to get the hold right.

I wish there was a one size fits all approach, but I find any hard and fast rule doesn't really apply with tuning... its a dynamic process.

Joe