Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[TaperPin]

Sounds like you and your buddy need some practice. If you think you need a magnum to make that shot please don’t take it regardless of caliber. Hit the range not the keyboard

I just love how you see the size of vitals in that situation as being so large and forgiving. Lol

I guess if the bullet is a tiny bit off and it’s gut shot, deer don’t run far - right?

It reminds me of the kid that put some piece of crap Tasco on his rifle and was about to show us how easy real shooting is, if he could ever get it on paper. lol

 

[KHntr]

It sounds so easy and foolproof when you explain it like that. I’ll add that to the notes taped to the stock: “steep quartering away shots are easy.” Lol

Edit: I texted a buddy who took a steep quartering away shot, that it should have been easy, because you said so - we both chuckled. That’s classic little cartridge gold. Lol

Wait a minute…. Is your buddies name Jack???

 

[Clark33]

I just love how you see the size of vitals in that situation as being so large and forgiving. Lol

I guess if the bullet is a tiny bit off and it’s gut shot, deer don’t run far - right?

It reminds me of the kid that put some piece of crap Tasco on his rifle and was about to show us how easy real shooting is, if he could ever get it on paper. lol

The deer didn't run at all, he dropped. I put my rounds where I want them, it got a lot easier after I upgraded from my tasco scope though

 

[TaperPin]

The deer didn't run at all, he dropped. I put my rounds where I want them, it got a lot easier after I upgraded from my tasco scope though

Well it sounds like you’re quite the rifle shot - good job.

 

[Clark33]

Well it sounds like you’re quite the rifle shot - good job.

I am, thank you

 

[MCS]

What bullet were you using in the 6.5 Creed?

As to your last comment, that is flat-out false. As has been pointed out many times, and my experience over a couple hundred animals killed with rifles backs up what has been posted. If you use a properly constructed bullet and put it in the vital V the animal will die pretty damn quick, regardless of the caliber of the bullet that it used. Any variation in time of death is purely due to the individual animal.

I'm using the 140 eldm in the 6.5 at 2813 fps. I use a 180 berger in a 7mm for deer now and that bullet has performed a lot better. Most of the time deer drop without taking a step. 9 deer and 1 antelope were shot with my creedmoor and the only one that dropped in place was the buck I shot in the head.

So I'm confused on why you think what I said was false? I get better performance and faster kills with the larger match bullet out of the 7mm then I did with the match bullet out of the 6.5

How is getting better results false?

 

[Drenalin]

Seriously though, that changes for me depending on circumstances around the shot. This years elk got shot on the leading edge of his shoulder knuckle and it came out at the last ribs. The second one went in at the second to last ribs and went out through the opposite shoulder… He was in the open so it didn’t matter much and I didn’t need to shoot him twice but its hardwired into me to shoot elk if they are upright. Not sure I would intentionally shoot a healthy animal through the paunch.
A previously wounded one though that is about to get away is gonna get an additional hole as soon as crosshairs touch hair. Hips, guts, legs, face, don’t matter. I’ll do the work trimming bloodshot meat if necessary, because I owe it to the animal to finish what I started.

These two examples were with what bullet? I think I know, but for posterity…

My point is that I don’t really think about whether or not there’s a shoulder in the bullet’s path, but I’m only shooting deer and bears with 73 ELDMs. I keep seeing something along the lines of smaller calibers working fine “if the animal’s broadside” or they’re limited “if a perfect shot isn’t available.” So I’m curious where that line is for others or on other game.

 

[HandgunHTR]

So I confused on why you think what I said was false? I get better performance and faster kills with the larger match bullet out of the 7mm then I did with the match bullet out of the 6.5

How is getting better results false?

What you said was that anyone who says that a 6mm bullet kills as fast as a 30 cal bullet is lying. That is what is false.

I am not discounting your experience. In fact, it tracks pretty well with what others have seen as well. I am assuming that that 180 grain 7mm bullet is going somewhere in the 2900s as far as speed, correct? If so, of course it is going to make a bigger wound channel than a 140 grain ELDM with a muzzle velocity in the 2800s. In your case, that wound channel obviously included some component of the CNS for them to go down right away.

 

[MCS]

What you said was that anyone who says that a 6mm bullet kills as fast as a 30 cal bullet is lying. That is what is false.

I am not discounting your experience. In fact, it tracks pretty well with what others have seen as well. I am assuming that that 180 grain 7mm bullet is going somewhere in the 2900s as far as speed, correct? If so, of course it is going to make a bigger wound channel than a 140 grain ELDM with a muzzle velocity in the 2800s. In your case, that wound channel obviously included some component of the CNS for them to go down right away.

My muzzle velocity with the 7mm is 2700 because I'm running a 20 inch barrel.

I stand by that statement the big 30 will kill faster then the 6mm. Because it's true.

 

[jk_minn]

I’ll eat a piece of humble pie and share a recent hunting experience that has me considering the topic of this thread.

Long story short, this November while on a Mule deer hunt in MT, I had a decent opportunity to take a quality buck and missed (twice). My hunting partner had trouble finding the target fast enough to spot my shots, and I was unable to spot the shots. Horrible feeling.

A little more context - I was shooting a 11 lb braked 300 NMI. I can consistently shoot less than 1/2 moa at long ranges and spot shots from the prone position with bipods (when at the range and not under a high stress situation) - Just like I can with my 10 lb 25 Creedmoor, just like I can with my 14 lb 7 Mag….

The recent misses led me to a few conclusions/questions. 1) I need to practice more. 2) I need better understand my capabilities. And 3) What is the appropriate cartridge/weight of rifle/muzzle device/scope (Rifle System) to allow for better spotting of shots in wider range of hunting situations.

Can I shoot my 300 NMI accurately? Yes. Is my 25 Creedmoor easier to spot shots due to reduced recoil? Yes. How much gun do you need to kill at a certain distance? I am caring less.

 

[Mrcheesemoose]

My muzzle velocity with the 7mm is 2700 because I'm running a 20 inch barrel.

I stand by that statement the big 30 will kill faster then the 6mm. Because it's true.

I don’t think it’s always true. If I hit the spine with a 30 cal or a 6mm. The animal will be dead just as quickly either way.

 

[KHntr]

These two examples were with what bullet? I think I know, but for posterity…

My point is that I don’t really think about whether or not there’s a shoulder in the bullet’s path, but I’m only shooting deer and bears with 73 ELDMs. I keep seeing something along the lines of smaller calibers working fine “if the animal’s broadside” or they’re limited “if a perfect shot isn’t available.” So I’m curious where that line is for others or on other game.

Edited my post, for posterity….(grin)

But yeah, 88 ELD m.

I 75 Amax’d a lot of animals, and had coached a few people through their first 22cf shots on game as well. A deer shoulder was always factored into the shot - in that I wanted to crush it on the way in or the way out.

 

[rclouse79]

I have not read any of the replies in this thread, but I have spent a lot of time in the 223, 6mm, and 25-06 thread. I wouldn’t call most of what I see as a debate. The smaller calibers work very well with the right bullet, and it is easy to see if you go through a few pages with an open mind. Far more people have been converted based on the overwhelming evidence than would be typical for topics like politics or religion.
It will be impossible for some people to accept that the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of magnum calibers in their gun safe aren’t the only tool for the job. When you have been drinking the Fudd Kool-Aid for decades it becomes more like religion or politics, where feelings are hard to change with facts. I don’t feel the need to reply to the Fudds. They are kind of like your crazy uncle at the family reunion that has lost their marbles. It is just easier to smile and pat them on the back when they start talking nonsense.

 

[tater]

I was going to sit quietly, but WT season ended yesterday and its too sloppy to chase cats today and i'm feeling like its time to scream into the void.

Being of a certain "vintage", i have had the chance to not only watch shifts in technology but actually build real life experience. I was that little outdoor nerd kid who had the chance to run free hunting and trapping from an early age and who also devoured pages and pages of outdoor propaganda.

I read daily all about Milek and Sundra extolling the virtues of "small and accurate" while Boddington and Skelton talked about "energy and frontal diameter".

More importantly i had mentors that were decades older than me that had truly been some places and done some things that showed me what it all meant in REAL LIFE. I watched these men shoot (and kill) everything from whitetails to moose with cartridges ranging from .378 Wby's to .243 Wins. This included guides and outfitters (one of which i worked for as a pup), trappers, and a couple of true rifle loons.

I was then blessed enough to get out and live a full life in the outdoors (which i am grateful to be able to still do).

One of them shot EVERYTHING with a .243 and partitions. No one blinked an eye. The man was a master woodsman who filled three or four tags (deer/elk/moose) per year because he had a big family to feed. I remember when i was going through my "Elmer Keith/Robert Ruark phase" and i asked him about "using enough gun" and he just patiently smiled and said "a gut shot is a gut shot". That's it. No more no less.

Another mentor dropped from his beloved 1949 Model 70 in .375 H&H to a model 100 in .308 win when he hit 63, and his blown out shoulders wouldn't allow him to use it accurately. I remember him shaking his head after shooting the first moose with it and saying "That bull died just as quick as any i ever shot with that .375. Makes me wonder why i carried that thing all those years". That man left a collection of over 400 firearms when he passed in 1997. He had options.

I have seen a lot of animals die, from my hands and from a lot of others as well. I remember tracking a big gut-shot black bear that a sport shot with a 7RM at 20 yards off of a rest, and all i could think of was Larry's words of "a gut shot is a gut shot". That sport had spent the previous two days talking about the "death ray" qualities of that round.

I love shooting my .338WM, and i killed a lot of stuff with it, but my 25-06's and 6.5x55's kill just as effectively when used.

I'm 16 days from my 53rd trip around the sun and these are hard earned facts that i know to be true:

Learn to shoot, but more importantly learn to hunt.
Bullets kill. Energy and headstamps don't.
And a gut shot is a gut shot.

 

[Lou270]

I’ll eat a piece of humble pie and share a recent hunting experience that has me considering the topic of this thread.

Long story short, this November while on a Mule deer hunt in MT, I had a decent opportunity to take a quality buck and missed (twice). My hunting partner had trouble finding the target fast enough to spot my shots, and I was unable to spot the shots. Horrible feeling.

A little more context - I was shooting a 11 lb braked 300 NMI. I can consistently shoot less than 1/2 moa at long ranges and spot shots from the prone position with bipods (when at the range and not under a high stress situation) - Just like I can with my 10 lb 25 Creedmoor, just like I can with my 14 lb 7 Mag….

The recent misses led me to a few conclusions/questions. 1) I need to practice more. 2) I need better understand my capabilities. And 3) What is the appropriate cartridge/weight of rifle/muzzle device/scope (Rifle System) to allow for better spotting of shots in wider range of hunting situations.

Can I shoot my 300 NMI accurately? Yes. Is my 25 Creedmoor easier to spot shots due to reduced recoil? Yes. How much gun do you need to kill at a certain distance? I am caring less.

I could care less about using a 25 or 300 for deer but spotting shots because you are shooting too far and think a small cartridge will help you walk on better is a horrid reason to think a small cartridge is better for hunting. If you want to get better at long range practice with the smaller round and hunt with the larger. Learning to read wind and getting in solid position is cartridge independent.

Lou

 

[ElGuapo]

Recoil has to start when the bullet moves. It’s physics. But, laws of momentum means the rifle moves slower than the bullet given the relative weights.

At 1 foot, 1 moa is .0034 inches, so it doesn’t take much. A human hair is about .002 inches.