Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[HandgunHTR]

I used a 6.5 creedmoor for a lot of years and I switched back to the 7mm for deer and 30 cal for elk. Smaller caliber bullets don't put down deer and elk like a big 7mm or 30 cal. They do kill but not as fast or at as long of range. Some bullets also perform better then other. The 180 berger in the 7mm. The 208 and 225 eldm in the 30 cal put animals down fast.

Anyone who says a 6mm will kill just as fast as a big 30 cal is lying or using a crap bullet in the 30 cal and a good bullet in the 6mm.

What bullet were you using in the 6.5 Creed?

As to your last comment, that is flat-out false. As has been pointed out many times, and my experience over a couple hundred animals killed with rifles backs up what has been posted. If you use a properly constructed bullet and put it in the vital V the animal will die pretty damn quick, regardless of the caliber of the bullet that it used. Any variation in time of death is purely due to the individual animal.

 

[mt100gr.]

What bullet were you using in the 6.5 Creed?

As to your last comment, that is flat-out false. As has been pointed out many times, and my experience over a couple hundred animals killed with rifles backs up what has been posted. If you use a properly constructed bullet and put it in the vital V the animal will die pretty damn quick, regardless of the caliber of the bullet that it used. Any variation in time of death is purely due to the individual animal.

^^^THIS!! In almost 30 years of doing this, with cartridges from .223 to 300winmag, there is little (if any) difference in time to incapacitation with good bullets and good shot placement. In fact, the last 7 deer i have seen killed with .223 and 77 TMK have died as fast, or faster, than the last few I have seen killed with 7mm or 30 magnums.

Centerfire rifles are more alike than different.

 

[KenLee]

"A) a partition or ballistic tip is NOT the same as an Amax/ELD m/DTAC…etc"

Have you actually shot game with a Nosler Ballistic Tip? They are pretty darn close. Arguably a better fragmenting bullet from a 243.

 

[mtnbound]

I have noticed a trend within all of the small-caliber vs large-caliber debates.

Former large-caliber shooters who switched to small calibers say they are more accurate with the smaller caliber and can spot their shots much better.

Current large-caliber shooters say their systems are just as accurate and can also spot their shots.

Both sides tend to agree that a good bullet placed into the vitals will kill.

However, large-caliber shooters state they use bigger bullets with more energy, which penetrate deeper and cause more tissue damage, which increases the probability of killing an animal when a shot is less-than-perfect. As someone raised in a hunting family who has hunted for decades, I realize a bad shot can happen anytime. Still, because this is such a common statement against using smaller calibers, one must assume that large-caliber shooters are experiencing repeated less-than-ideal shots and are trying to help educate small-caliber shooters about this.

Furthermore, the large-caliber shooters say that the small-caliber guys have to shoot the animal multiple times because they use too small a caliber. When large-caliber shooters have follow-up shots on animals, they are proving to the small-caliber shooters how tough animals are and how under-gunned the small-caliber shooter is. Again, based on their experience, the large-caliber shooters are helping to educate the small-caliber shooters because they don't want them to repeat the same mistakes they are doing.

Walt Whitman said, "Be Curious, Not Judgemental." I, for one, am curious why anyone who experiences repeated less-than-ideal shots is not interested in trying to resolve or reduce this from happening. Still, I am not judging you, as I don't care what you do. I am also curious why anyone who has never experienced less-than-ideal or follow-up shots worries about something that has never happened. But again, I'm not judging you, as I do not care what you do.



Merry Christmas & Yippe-Ki-Yay MF's

 

[Flynhunt]

Still, because this is such a common statement against using smaller calibers, one must assume that large-caliber shooters are experiencing repeated less-than-ideal shots and are trying to help educate small-caliber shooters about this.

A lot of good info there. Except I don’t think that bringing up the possibility of a bad shot can be interpolated as they experience more bad shots. Just that the possibility of bad shots exists with either caliber, and big crowd believes they have an advantage if that happens.

 

[braydencase7]

Just a couple more pages, then I'm sure this will be settled

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

 

[TaperPin]

I, for one, am curious why anyone who experiences repeated less-than-ideal shots is not interested in trying to resolve or reduce this from happening.

I really enjoy the optimism that the small violently expanding bullet crowd brings with them - bad angles are so easy to avoid, simply don’t shoot if it’s not ideal, and all that bla bla bla. If only ideal angles are taken, many folks are going home empty handed. Talking a good game about letting the biggest buck you’ve ever seen walk away is one thing. Hunting in my world has animals of all angles that don’t stand around broadside waiting. Off angle shots happen time and time again, because that’s real hunting.

I often wonder why so many new hunters think animals are more stationary than they really are, and can’t help thinking it’s because of videos - decades of new guys see videos and think that’s what hunting is all about - year after year, decade after decade the videos show lazy calm animals getting whacked broadside. The animals who are bumped and end up hauling ass away are 100x harder to video unless they were spotted prior. The type of open country hunting that’s easier to video also shows up more often in videos than it ever did when hunting stories were primarily in print. Open country hunting opportunities haven’t increased, so why is it covered so much more? The change in optics has followed the same trend - it must surprise a lot of new elk hunters to read forums for a year, buy alpha glass, then go hunting with an experienced group and never bring out a spotting scope or tripod.

 

[KHntr]

"A) a partition or ballistic tip is NOT the same as an Amax/ELD m/DTAC…etc"

Have you actually shot game with a Nosler Ballistic Tip? They are pretty darn close. Arguably a better fragmenting bullet from a 243.

Of course. But only in 125, 150, and 180 gr 30 cals from 3800 fps down to 2800 fps muzzle velocity on coyotes, deer and black bears. And not in the last 10 years.
And admittedly, low sample numbers.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Furthermore, the large-caliber shooters say that the small-caliber guys have to shoot the animal multiple times because they use too small a caliber. When large-caliber shooters have follow-up shots on animals, they are proving to the small-caliber shooters how tough animals are and how under-gunned the small-caliber shooter is. Again, based on their experience, the large-caliber shooters are helping to educate the small-caliber shooters because they don't want them to repeat the same mistakes they are doing.

This is the one that gets me. Most of the time when I ask, they are using a mono or "premium" hunting bullet.

Here is an actual exchange between me and another hunter while on a Scimitar Orxy hunt.

Them: "It took me 3 shots from my 338WM using 200 grain TSX bullets to put that big oryx down. These things really soak up some energy before going down. That is why you need to use a real gun."
Me: "Damn. Mine went down after 2 shots with my 6.5 Grendel. The first one was a kill shot, but I wanted to get it on the ground before it went into that thick scrub, so I put another one in it."
Them: "You got lucky."

 

[KHntr]

I really enjoy the optimism that the small violently expanding bullet crowd brings with them - bad angles are so easy to avoid, simply don’t shoot if it’s not ideal, and all that bla bla bla. If only ideal angles are taken, many folks are going home empty handed. Talking a good game about letting the biggest buck you’ve ever seen walk away is one thing. Hunting in my world has animals of all angles that don’t stand around broadside waiting. Off angle shots happen time and time again, because that’s real hunting.

I often wonder why so many new hunters think animals are more stationary than they really are, and can’t help thinking it’s because of videos - decades of new guys see videos and think that’s what hunting is all about - year after year, decade after decade the videos show lazy calm animals getting whacked broadside. The animals who are bumped and end up hauling ass away are 100x harder to video unless they were spotted prior. The type of open country hunting that’s easier to video also shows up more often in videos than it ever did when hunting stories were primarily in print. Open country hunting opportunities haven’t increased, so why is it covered so much more? The change in optics has followed the same trend - it must surprise a lot of new elk hunters to read forums for a year, buy alpha glass, then go hunting with an experienced group and never bring out a spotting scope or tripod.

Perhaps you missed my earlier question, or I missed your response.

Regardless…
Two day season. 16 total hours of hunting light.
Tine restricted to spike/fork/ten point/or tripalm on one side. Not exactly a generous season to fill a tag worth of winter meat.

Zero qualms about taking quartering in shots. And I don’t shoot through guts on unwounded animals regardless of cartridge horsepower.

Quartering in, shot on the point of the shoulder as he was walking through the alders. 88 ELD m.

 

[TaperPin]

Reading only this forum someone would think experienced hunters only go from large to smaller cartridges over time.

A friend from Texas was married into a big fancy family that owned a huge portion of west Texas and his fancy little 25-06 was deadly close or far. He moved to the Rocky Mountain states and we often went to the range together. Eventually he said after watching me and the 110 lb wife shoot our 7 mags for a without problems, he wanted to try shooting one, but made excuses he might not hit anything since it’s a lot more gun than he’s used to. He shot the smallest 5 shot group of his entire life that day, and bought himself a rifle and another to send back to a hunting buddy in Texas as a gift.

Another shooter had taken some nice 400+ yard animals with a 243 and mentioned wanting to move up to a larger rifle, so I suggested shooting a 270 for a few years and if they still wanted something larger going to a 7 mag. Right away a 270 was purchased, and a few years later a 7 mag that was used for everything. That’s pretty normal and a smart way to work up to something larger. No drama.

Not that she was experienced, but my wife used a 243 and took a number of animals with it out to 450 yards before asking for a 7 mag cut down for her 5’2” size. She wasn’t a serious hunter, but wanted to be involved so always had a tag. I assumed she’d always be happiest shooting the 243, but she didn’t like the amount of leg kicking animals had compared to a 7 mag. Weird girl logic. She didn’t know boys complain about recoil and shot it just fine - years later I asked how hard the adjustment was to 7 mag and she said what do you mean. “Recoil,” I said. “Its never entered my mind - doesn’t seem to make a difference.”

 

[TaperPin]

Perhaps you missed my earlier question, or I missed your response.

Regardless…
Two day season. 16 total hours of hunting light.
Tine restricted to spike/fork/ten point/or tripalm on one side. Not exactly a generous season to fill a tag worth of winter meat.

Zero qualms about taking quartering in shots. And I don’t shoot through guts on unwounded animals regardless of cartridge horsepower.

Quartering in, shot on the point of the shoulder as he was walking through the alders. 88 ELD m.

Good job, but only in the small caliber groups does quartering-in even register as having the slightest big of difficulty. It is funny reading the conflict when someone does have a bullet failure when quartering-in and everyone jumps on them for shooting through a squirrel and not knowing what they are talking about, and hitting a branch, or it was only a glancing shot, and it couldn’t have been the bullet claimed, etc. lol

 

[KHntr]

Point being, you mention having to pass on anything but perfectly broadside shots using a 243 for deer…. Well, that wasn’t perfectly broadside, and it weren’t a 243… merely offering up an example that perhaps there are things more important than caliber. Like the bullets……….

 

[Clark33]

Zero qualms shooting big game with my 6creed quartering to or away. Actually dropped a mature muley with a 6creed and a pretty steep quarter away angle, which makes me wonder where the hell are you aiming large cal guys if you think a smaller cal can't take a quartering to shot?

 

[Drenalin]

Aside from a straight-on ass shot, which I wouldn’t personally take with any caliber/cartridge/bullet, what angles are a no-go for the “small caliber cult?”

 

[TaperPin]

Zero qualms shooting big game with my 6creed quartering to or away. Actually dropped a mature muley with a 6creed and a pretty steep quarter away angle, which makes me wonder where the hell are you aiming large cal guys if you think a smaller cal can't take a quartering to shot?

It sounds so easy and foolproof when you explain it like that. I’ll add that to the notes taped to the stock: “steep quartering away shots are easy.” Lol

Edit: I texted a buddy who took a steep quartering away shot, that it should have been easy, because you said so - we both chuckled. That’s classic little cartridge gold. Lol

 

[Clark33]

It sounds so easy and foolproof when you explain it like that. I’ll add that to the notes taped to the stock: “steep quartering away shots are easy.” Lol

Edit: I texted a buddy who took a steep quartering away shot, that it should have been easy, because you said so - we both chuckled. That’s classic little cartridge gold. Lol

Sounds like you and your buddy need some practice. If you think you need a magnum to make that shot please don’t take it regardless of caliber. Hit the range not the keyboard

 

[TaperPin]

Point being, you mention having to pass on anything but perfectly broadside shots using a 243 for deer…. Well, that wasn’t perfectly broadside, and it weren’t a 243… merely offering up an example that perhaps there are things more important than caliber. Like the bullets……….

You guys are intent on changing how we kill things, even though it’s boringly reliable and has been since the 1980’s. It’s nice of you to offer up some advice though.

 

[KHntr]

Aside from a straight-on ass shot, which I wouldn’t personally take with any caliber/cartridge/bullet, what angles are a no-go for the “small caliber cult?”

What animal are we talking?

Like, is it the last minute of the last day of a trophy once in a lifetime Elkabou hunt that cost eleventy eight hundred thousand dollars and he’s on the edge of the Grand Canyon and about to jump but his haunch is in the way of getting to his lungs?
Then I’d probably anchor him by shooting through his pelvis and the base of his spine and be quick on a followup through his lungs instead of hoping to get through a paunch stuffed full of garden gnomes after a night of feeding.


Seriously though, that changes for me depending on circumstances around the shot. This years elk got shot on the leading edge of his shoulder knuckle and it came out at the last ribs. The second one went in at the second to last ribs and went out through the opposite shoulder… He was in the open so it didn’t matter much and I didn’t need to shoot him twice but its hardwired into me to shoot elk if they are upright. Not sure I would intentionally shoot a healthy animal through the paunch.
A previously wounded one though that is about to get away is gonna get an additional hole as soon as crosshairs touch hair. Hips, guts, legs, face, don’t matter. I’ll do the work trimming bloodshot meat if necessary, because I owe it to the animal to finish what I started.

 

[hereinaz]

Sincere question…. Is it physics that make the lighter recoiling caliber more accurate (I.E. is an equal 223 inherently more accurate than an equal 338 Lapua)? If fired without the human element, is the smaller round more accurate, in theory, or are saying that humans generally flinch whenever shooting larger calibers?

Physics. Imagine which barrel will move the most under recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel. But, it is relative to the weight of the rifle per recoil, that is why it makes a difference in hunting weight rifles.

I have not seen where size makes a cartridge more or less accurate. The guys shooting ELR with .338 and bigger make it happen, and use 40 lbs guns.