Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[mxgsfmdpx]

What part of Az? I’ll be out in flagstaff after Christmas to pick up my bull.

Congrats on the bull. I’ll PM you.

 

[wind gypsy]

I wish I could lock my own thread. Lol. No regerts... except starting this thread.

 

[EastHumboldt]

All right… it’s settled once and for all then. Bullets kill deer.

 

[Choupique]

Little bullets kill deer. Big bullets wallop them.

 

[Billogna]

If you are happy with the performance of what you have, there’s no reason to change. The folks that change and go bigger are only doing it because they believe the extra work and punishment are worth the squeeze.

It's perfectly acceptable to say BIG PEW = more fun. Just in my case it isn't.

I think one of the main messages that was getting lost is that the small caliber crew was trying to remove the blinders from the people that were saying the ONLY answer is BIG PEWS!!

 

[Billogna]

Little bullets kill deer. Big bullets wallop them.

This of course begs the question.... what do medium bullets do?? Schmack them?

 

[Choupique]

The line of demarcation is 6.5 creedmoor. Greater than = wallop. Smaller than or equal to = kill.

 

[Quandary]

The only thing is did do is ........ required more attention to shoot well in the field.

Uhh, didn't realize that was a bad thing.

 

[hereinaz]

I wish I could lock my own thread. Lol. No regerts... except starting this thread.

Unfollow your own thread! Hahahaha, it’s a thing.

Eject, eject, eject!

 

[ElGuapo]

This is not that complicated. There are two groups of shooters.

One group KNOWS you will shoot a rifle with lighter recoil better in field positions.

The other group hasn't tried it.

This is probably the dumbest debate going on Rokslide right now.

Sincere question…. Is it physics that make the lighter recoiling caliber more accurate (I.E. is an equal 223 inherently more accurate than an equal 338 Lapua)? If fired without the human element, is the smaller round more accurate, in theory, or are saying that humans generally flinch whenever shooting larger calibers?

 

[ElGuapo]

View attachment 808510

No Ragrets bro…. Not even on letter

 

[Choupique]

If fired without the human element

The squishy meat bag pulling the trigger is the issue. Battleship guns can be accurate.

Flinching can be the problem. The gun rocking them around inconsistently can be the problem. The stock flexing can be the problem. Nearly very factor contributing to lesser accuracy is amplified as recoil increases.

 

[Lawnboi]

Consistency is why more recoil is harder to shoot.

It is hard to address the rifle in the exact same manner every shot from different positions. Which is why most can shoot a decent group on a bench or prone, and have it turn into 4moa when shooting a Kraft drill.

That rifle is moving as soon or during the trigger press. The more it moves, the more consistent the object catching the recoil must be (the shooter). A 223 being shot from an odd position is going to move a lot less than a 3006 in the same.

That’s just one reason it’s harder, not going into human reaction to recoil and blast.

 

[wind gypsy]

Sincere question…. Is it physics that make the lighter recoiling caliber more accurate (I.E. is an equal 223 inherently more accurate than an equal 338 Lapua)? If fired without the human element, is the smaller round more accurate, in theory, or are saying that humans generally flinch whenever shooting larger calibers?

The bullet isn't accelerating after it leaves the barrel, therefor the equal and opposite forces are happening as the bullet and gasses are accelerating out of the barrel. Meaning the rifle is moving while the bullet is in the barrel and how it moves depends heavily on the shooter resists said movement.

And yes, flinching is an issue too but its not just a "i aint scared and dont flinch" issue like everyone tries to make it.

 

[Quandary]

A lot of the discussion is recoil and flinch which can be trained out and/or after a lifetime of shooting is ignored. Honest question and observation. When in the field shooting at animal or fowl have you ever thought about or felt recoil? In 50+ years of hunting squirrels and rabbits with a 22LR to grizzly with a 300PRC and geese with a 10 gauge I can honestly say I have never thought about or felt the recoil of the gun. My hunting buddies all say the same thing. Let's not bring the physics in, as that is what it is? But Is felt recoil or thinking about recoil really a thing in a hunting scenario?

 

[ElGuapo]

The squishy meat bag pulling the trigger is the issue. Battleship guns can be accurate.

Flinching can be the problem. The gun rocking them around inconsistently can be the problem. The stock flexing can be the problem. Nearly very factor contributing to lesser accuracy is amplified as recoil increases.

So, assuming we don’t have a flinch, then the first shot from an equally accurate 300 RUM, or a 6 Creed, could theoretically impact a buck in the same spot at 682 yards, across a canyon…..

I guess this is why I don’t buy any of these blanket statements, that everyone is more accurate with smaller guns…. That’s nonsense. What’s actually being stated is that most PEOPLE handle smaller calibers more consistently. Same reason the FBI ditched the 10MM, and created the 40 SW. Because many officers couldn’t consistently handle the recoil of the 10. Doesn’t make the cartridge less accurate, or effective.

I don’t bang away with my big guns a lot. I dry fire them a lot, and I verify that they’re hitting where they should at distance. I practice with small rounds, and I haven’t developed an aversion to hunting with larger caliber rounds, which absolutely have a more definitive effect on game than smaller rounds.

Whatever…. It works for me. I rarely have to shoot anything a 2nd time, so I’ll just continue on my journey and keep killing stuff.

 

[KHntr]

Our kids and wives kill things out to 450 yards with the 243 with everything from factory cup and core, Partitions, to Ballistic tips, to Interbonds. I think it’s a great round if the shots are broadside.

The bias against the 243 seems to be localized around your social circle.

I think that might be the variables you are missing right there in your arguments…
Food for thought:
A) a partition or ballistic tip is NOT the same as an Amax/ELD m/DTAC…etc
B) you state that your kids/wives kill stuff out 450 with 243’s. Broadside shots. Have ypu ever said to a kid “waaaiiiit, just give him a second to turn…. Ok now” or words to that effect? Restricting them to that broadside angle, and cementing into their minds from day one that broadside is the ONLY acceptable shot with a 243?
Think you are the first guy to do that? That you pioneered that mind set “out West”?
Of course kids want to step up to a 270 after watching dad get to shoot a quartering in bull elk, and they didn’t because he never turned broadside.
As to watching “big guns kill faster”, I dunno, I killed a moose at 352 with an 88 ELD m this year, saw his mouth drop open and clearly saw his chompers as his ass collapsed and he went down in the scope.
Then I called all three shots for one of my bestest buddies thumping 168 mono’s from a 300wsm into his bulls chest, before that one finally fell over and kicked for a few seconds. “Where’d your bull go?!?!?!”
“He’s dead where he was standing…”

Drop a 108 ELD m in that 243 for your kids. Let them crush ‘em where they stand.

 

[MT-nuffgun]

I think that might be the variables you are missing right there in your arguments…
Food for thought:
A) a partition or ballistic tip is NOT the same as an Amax/ELD m/DTAC…etc
B) you state that your kids/wives kill stuff out 450 with 243’s. Broadside shots. Have ypu ever said to a kid “waaaiiiit, just give him a second to turn…. Ok now” or words to that effect? Restricting them to that broadside angle, and cementing into their minds from day one that broadside is the ONLY acceptable shot with a 243?
Think you are the first guy to do that? That you pioneered that mind set “out West”?
Of course kids want to step up to a 270 after watching dad get to shoot a quartering in bull elk, and they didn’t because he never turned broadside.
As to watching “big guns kill faster”, I dunno, I killed a moose at 352 with an 88 ELD m this year, saw his mouth drop open and clearly saw his chompers as his ass collapsed and he went down in the scope.
Then I called all three shots for one of my bestest buddies thumping 168 mono’s from a 300wsm into his bulls chest, before that one finally fell over and kicked for a few seconds. “Where’d your bull go?!?!?!”
“He’s dead where he was standing…”

Drop a 108 ELD m in that 243 for your kids. Let them crush ‘em where they stand.

You missed pinheads comment earlier in this thread. “Big guns kill things faster”. You, also, clearly are not smart or experienced enough to understand this.

 

[MT-nuffgun]

You cannot approach pinhead with logic, it just doesn’t work that way .

 

[Schmo]

So, assuming we don’t have a flinch, then the first shot from an equally accurate 300 RUM, or a 6 Creed, could theoretically impact a buck in the same spot at 682 yards, across a canyon…..

You missed what he said. It’s not necessarily flinching, although that contributes a lot of times. The main point is: You have to be much more consistent in pressures and positions with a heavy recoiling rifle than light recoiling rifles to see the same degree of accuracy. Which moves an equal weight rifle more? A 75 gr @ 3000, or a 200 gr @ 3000? Obviously, the 200 gr. So if you’re not consistent behind the gun, with the same technique, the heavy recoil rifle won’t be as accurate, because it’s moving more before the bullet exits the barrel. We aren’t talking shooting from a bench, or rock solid perfect prone. We’re talking about varied & awkward shooting positions.