Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[Speaks]

They won’t haha.

I’ve definitely posted my “experiences” and “opinions” on this “debate” many times here on Rokslide in lots threads over the years.

I’ve been a huge proponent of lower recoiling cartridges going back to way before Rokslide was a web site. I still have folks message me or come up to me in my hometown when bumped into and thank me for steering them to 6.5 and 6mm chamberings for hunting and shooting.

I appreciate everyone’s experiences and ideas but these threads always end up the same way. The only way to see this is live shooting in person snd looking at the results together and going “hmmm”. But the vast majority of folks would rather talk about it on the internet instead of going out and trying it.

For me personally I’ve shared enough replies and experiences of real shooters to the tune of hundreds of folks. The results are what they are and I’ve been vocal on those results on this forum.

I’ll be stepping away from these types of discussions moving forward as it honestly mostly seems like it’s falling on deaf ears with folks already having an idea in their head and can’t be tasked with even trying something else. However, if somebody asks me directly for my opinion and experience on a subject, I’m happy to answer or provide photos and videos of shooting.

The going back and forth and talking in circles with folks unwilling to video themselves shooting live or accept an open invitation from me in 4 options of states to meet up and shoot, its just a bit pointless to me at this point to “debate it”.

Appreciate everyone’s experiences and replies to me personally. Happy shooting and Merry Christmas to all you heathens!!!

I will be posting shooting videos, so if anyone is interested in a winter and spring full of hunting terrain shot scenarios, shooting “groups”, checking rifle zeros after nasty drives and pack outs, etc. I’ll be starting an “adventures” thread to check out sometime soon.

Cheers!

These threads really opened my eyes to the effectiveness of smaller calibers. I was very much set on magnums before. So I do think the experiences posted have done a lot of good.

 

[hereinaz]

These threads really opened my eyes to the effectiveness of smaller calibers. I was very much set on magnums before. So I do think the experiences posted have done a lot of good.

I agree, it can seem like a never ending quest, and it is… there are new people all the time coming with an open mind.

And, there are lots of people reading but not participating that benefit from the repeated and well reasoned explanations about small caliber high BC/heavy for caliber match bullets.

It matters that the proponents mostly stay reasonable. I usually add a few things each thread, adding a different aspect or way to look at it.

 

[huntnful]

Good discussion. I’ve enjoyed reading, and I like and appreciate all the cartridges/calibers.

Unstable & Rushed…. Smaller = Gooder.

Stable & Not rushed…. Doesn’t Matter

That just my experiences and opinion though.

 

[huntnful]

They won’t haha.

I’ve definitely posted my “experiences” and “opinions” on this “debate” many times here on Rokslide in lots threads over the years.

I’ve been a huge proponent of lower recoiling cartridges going back to way before Rokslide was a web site. I still have folks message me or come up to me in my hometown when bumped into and thank me for steering them to 6.5 and 6mm chamberings for hunting and shooting.

I appreciate everyone’s experiences and ideas but these threads always end up the same way. The only way to see this is live shooting in person snd looking at the results together and going “hmmm”. But the vast majority of folks would rather talk about it on the internet instead of going out and trying it.

For me personally I’ve shared enough replies and experiences of real shooters to the tune of hundreds of folks. The results are what they are and I’ve been vocal on those results on this forum.

I’ll be stepping away from these types of discussions moving forward as it honestly mostly seems like it’s falling on deaf ears with folks already having an idea in their head and can’t be tasked with even trying something else. However, if somebody asks me directly for my opinion and experience on a subject, I’m happy to answer or provide photos and videos of shooting.

The going back and forth and talking in circles with folks unwilling to video themselves shooting live or accept an open invitation from me in 4 options of states to meet up and shoot, its just a bit pointless to me at this point to “debate it”.

Appreciate everyone’s experiences and replies to me personally. Happy shooting and Merry Christmas to all you heathens!!!

I will be posting shooting videos, so if anyone is interested in a winter and spring full of hunting terrain shot scenarios, shooting “groups”, checking rifle zeros after nasty drives and pack outs, etc. I’ll be starting an “adventures” thread to check out sometime soon.

Cheers!

I’m very much looking forward to shooting! It’s been a steep learning curve not having a ton of direction for the first few years. But I’m really wanting to make good, legit progress. I’m ready to be humbled 100% haha.

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

I was on the 30 cal magnum bandwagon for most of my hunting years. Instead of constantly debating it, I took the information in. I processed it and thought about it. The steps that followed went something like this:
I built a "small" caliber rifle in 25-284.
I shot and practiced with said rifle alongside my semi-custom 300wsm.
I tested the small gun on game.

1st few animals I was pleasantly surprised, but still skeptical. Many animals later and for some reason I don't have that beautiful 300wsm anymore.

My brother, skeptical, but based on purely my results without any pressure from me, obtained a smaller cartridge and started "testing" the waters. For some reason, he now will have a 300 win mag carbon barrel for sale...crazy.

I don't argue for or against magnums vs non-magnums. I know what I personally prefer in a cartridge, but rather than have all these unending arguments, why not try a small caliber and report back good or bad? At the worst you eat crow and succumb to the idea that smaller is just fine, maybe better! Or, on the contrary, one can show evidence of why small calibers are a bad idea. Sounds like a win either way? Nearly anyone arguing against small calibers will have access to something in the realm of <6.5mm.

Why not load that up with the frangible bullet of your choosing and prove to us that's a bad idea?

Let's learn, discuss, grow from being open to different ideas. I certainly wouldn't speak on the effectiveness of small calibers if I did not have a meaningful sample size to do so...relatively speaking of course.

 

[Schmo]

As much as I poo poo a 6mm bullet for trophy hunting, right now my favorite doe rifle is a 6mm-06

So, honest question for you. Why is it only your doe rifle, and not a buck rifle? I assume it’s because you feel you may lose a deer, and wouldn’t want it to be a buck that you’re losing. My question would be: if you feel it’s inferior for bucks, then why would you use it on a doe?

 

[mtnbound]

You read through the same posts I do, just from a different perspective - I’m not reading for information on the new bullet performance, I’m happy with the performance of old ancient technology Accubonds, but rather the interesting part are the stories of the rodeos starting from from first trigger pull.

I did say this was homework - it requires a little effort

It's pretty easy, actually. Updated Failures post.

 

[hereinaz]

I was on the 30 cal magnum bandwagon for most of my hunting years. Instead of constantly debating it, I took the information in. I processed it and thought about it. The steps that followed went something like this:
I built a "small" caliber rifle in 25-284.
I shot and practiced with said rifle alongside my semi-custom 300wsm.
I tested the small gun on game.

1st few animals I was pleasantly surprised, but still skeptical. Many animals later and for some reason I don't have that beautiful 300wsm anymore.

My brother, skeptical, but based on purely my results without any pressure from me, obtained a smaller cartridge and started "testing" the waters. For some reason, he now will have a 300 win mag carbon barrel for sale...crazy.

I don't argue for or against magnums vs non-magnums. I know what I personally prefer in a cartridge, but rather than have all these unending arguments, why not try a small caliber and report back good or bad? At the worst you eat crow and succumb to the idea that smaller is just fine, maybe better! Or, on the contrary, one can show evidence of why small calibers are a bad idea. Sounds like a win either way? Nearly anyone arguing against small calibers will have access to something in the realm of <6.5mm.

Why not load that up with the frangible bullet of your choosing and prove to us that's a bad idea?

Let's learn, discuss, grow from being open to different ideas. I certainly wouldn't speak on the effectiveness of small calibers if I did not have a meaningful sample size to do so...relatively speaking of course.

It’s hard not to stop and think about “confessions” like this. I think it’s some of the most valuable information out of these threads. Someone with no dog in the “fight”.

I like that you said, just give it a try.

I came to it after seeing my 7mm smash mulies, blacktail deer, caribou and elk, then seeing it destroying a Coues deer at 730 yards, all with a 180 7mm VLD… you’d think it would have bled off enough velocity not to destroy it.

I knew I could drop to a smaller caliber after that. I just didn’t realize it could go down to the 77 gr .223 bulllets.

And, I had plenty of experience shooting 6mm in matches. The wake-up call really came when I shot my hunting 7mm rifle in the second ever NRL Hunter match and performing terrible even though the 7mm shot small groups at 100 yards and I could ring steel at 1000 on the range.

I sucked, just like @wind gypsy predicts for so most who try. Believe me, it is a humbling experience, and I have seen the scores and met people in the same boat as me. There are always a few exceptions, but they are rare.

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

It’s hard not to stop and think about “confessions” like this. I think it’s some of the most valuable information out of these threads. Someone with no dog in the “fight”.

I like that you said, just give it a try.

I came to it after seeing my 7mm smash mulies, blacktail deer, caribou and elk, then seeing it destroying a Coues deer at 730 yards, all with a 180 7mm VLD… you’d think it would have bled off enough velocity not to destroy it.

I knew I could drop to a smaller caliber after that. I just didn’t realize it could go down to the 77 gr .223 bulllets.

And, I had plenty of experience shooting 6mm in matches. The wake-up call really came when I shot my hunting 7mm rifle in the second ever NRL Hunter match and performing terrible even though the 7mm shot small groups at 100 yards and I could ring steel at 1000 on the range.

I sucked, just like @wind gypsy predicts for so most who try. Believe me, it is a humbling experience, and I have seen the scores and met people in the same boat as me. There are always a few exceptions, but they are rare.

I love this, and I love the acceptance that our preconceived notions are not all based on fact, but often fallacy. I have killed 2 caribou with 60 grain varmint bullets at short ranges from a 224 valkyrie. I wouldn't say the deaths were dramatic, but they certainly did not suffer. This is not me condoning varmint bullets for big game, there's a middle ground to be had for most. For me it's cup and core design only moving forward.

The day before Christmas eve 4 of us are getting together to shoot the 7/5/3/2 moa target drill. With a little flare. It will all be steel targets set at various distances to make each 6" square target the appropriate moa size. All 4 rifles are set up differently and in 4 different calibers, with 4 different stocks/chassis. I should do a write up on the "test" between the different set ups and what was liked/wasn't liked.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

Shooting MOA groups is much easier from a bench or prone or really any controlled situation where you're addressing the rifle the same way shot to shot. In this scenario, any dispersion impacts from recoil may be similar round to round because you're in a controlled situation building the exact same position shot to shot thus the group stays tight. When in significantly different and more compromised positions, POI is going to shift more in part due to your rifle moving differently under recoil in different positions due to what forces you are imparting on the rifle. Similar to this, but not entirely due to recoil, you'll tend to see larger groups if someone builds a position from scratch for every shot vs staying in position and shooting a group.

This is part of what the kraft drill seeks to diagnose - kraft drill is shooting shots from prone, seating, kneeling, standing (all supported). It's not uncommon to have varying POI from different positions. I tend to have lower POI from the prone occasionally if loading a bipod for example.

Also, i think part of my statement about ALL shooters shooting lower recoil better seemed to get missed The debate is in to what extent. Certainly its possible and likely for external ballistics to outweigh impact in shooter's precision capabilities from increased recoil but its largely situation specific. Until one shoots a bunch and measures the difference in actual field type positions/conditions, it seems pretty hard to know just what the impact is.

POI shift from different positions is spot on. This is one of many reasons I find claims of zero shift of .1 or so mils due to “scope failure” highly dubious. Simply changing face pressure on the stock can shift POI due to the rifle moving under recoil differently and to your point, all that is exacerbated by heavier recoil.

All this is another reason why I have mostly used AR systems for hunting. It’s extremely easy to stay in the scope and make fast accurate follow ups without breaking position.

 

[huntnful]

It’s hard not to stop and think about “confessions” like this. I think it’s some of the most valuable information out of these threads. Someone with no dog in the “fight”.

I like that you said, just give it a try.

I came to it after seeing my 7mm smash mulies, blacktail deer, caribou and elk, then seeing it destroying a Coues deer at 730 yards, all with a 180 7mm VLD… you’d think it would have bled off enough velocity not to destroy it.

I knew I could drop to a smaller caliber after that. I just didn’t realize it could go down to the 77 gr .223 bulllets.

And, I had plenty of experience shooting 6mm in matches. The wake-up call really came when I shot my hunting 7mm rifle in the second ever NRL Hunter match and performing terrible even though the 7mm shot small groups at 100 yards and I could ring steel at 1000 on the range.

I sucked, just like @wind gypsy predicts for so most who try. Believe me, it is a humbling experience, and I have seen the scores and met people in the same boat as me. There are always a few exceptions, but they are rare.

Great info and perspective here!

Why no wake up call when you were just hunting with the 7mm? You had to shoot the match to have the wake up call? Were you missing/wounding animals with the 7mm while hunting? I watch the NRL shoots often and don't think they mimic most hunting scenarios very well. Actual hunting seems MUCH less chaotic. Which is why I'm assuming you didn't have that light switch moment at all while actually hunting. But needed to shoot a match, with intentionally configured forced positions and fast paced scenarios to have it?

I was apart of 15 or so medium/big game kills this year. Only one was anywhere near hectic. And it was my own kill on a running pig at 300 yards. I was GLAD I had my 22 CM and not a big magnum in that scenario. Other than that, everything was pretty nonchalant, just lay down and kill it type stuff. From 80-1114 yards this year. I think that's why it's easy to be like "yeah it's not that big of a deal" when 90%+ of the kills you're on or apart of just aren't that hectic.

Edit to say, I redact that statement. I had another good buddy miss at 150 yards seated unsupported, and then again at 480 yards prone, due to wind paired with parachute bullets. Both great bucks. He was shooting a 300 WM with 180 TTSX's. Both scenarios would have absolutely benefited from smaller faster flying higher BC projectiles and more positional practice.

 

[roadrunner]

The butt does the same thing every time, bounce off the shoulder. Doesn’t matter a whole lot what a butt is made out of.

Bullets do different things in the way they transfer energy. A match bullet explodes and a mono mushrooms and penetrates. That’s why energy can’t be used for bullets.

What do you think causes the explosion or mushroom and penetrate?

 

[hereinaz]

What do you think causes the explosion or mushroom and penetrate?

I can tell you what causes the a bullet to fragment/mushroom based on bullet construction and velocity at time of impact. I don’t have to know the weight of the bullet or energy.

The answer to your question goes back to the original issue in discussion, whether the energy transfer of a buttstock on tissue/bone is mechanically different than the energy transfer of a bullet on tissue/bone.

To say again in a different way. the effect of the bullet on game primarily depends on bullet construction and velocity. This is true because energy varies between weight/caliber but the fragmentation or mushroom correlates to the impact velocity into tissue.

The effect of a buttstock upon recoil from every rifle is same effect to the fabric and shoulder, compression forces and nothing more. You can add more padding to the rifle or the shoulder, but all that does is allow the rifle to decelerate slower and spread the energy over time, reducing how the recoil feels to the shooter and preventing crushing damage at the cell level (bruising) or at worst breaking bone.

The buttstock energy is transferred the same with every rifle, pushing with no penetration or permanent change to the stock.

The method of bullet energy is transferred differently depending on bullet construction. That seems without dispute.

Bullet energy/weight comes into play when discussing the total penetration and wound channel size.

 

[hereinaz]

Great info and perspective here!

Why no wake up call when you were just hunting with the 7mm? You had to shoot the match to have the wake up call? Were you missing/wounding animals with the 7mm while hunting? I watch the NRL shoots often and don't think they mimic most hunting scenarios very well. Actual hunting seems MUCH less chaotic. Which is why I'm assuming you didn't have that light switch moment at all while actually hunting. But needed to shoot a match, with intentionally configured forced positions and fast paced scenarios to have it?

I was apart of 15 or so medium/big game kills this year. Only one was anywhere near hectic. And it was my own kill on a running pig at 300 yards. I was GLAD I had my 22 CM and not a big magnum in that scenario. Other than that, everything was pretty nonchalant, just lay down and kill it type stuff. From 80-1114 yards this year. I think that's why it's easy to be like "yeah it's not that big of a deal" when 90%+ of the kills you're on or apart of just aren't that hectic.

Edit to say, I redact that statement. I had another good buddy miss at 150 yards seated unsupported, and then again at 480 yards prone, due to wind paired with parachute bullets. Both great bucks. He was shooting a 300 WM with 180 TTSX's. Both scenarios would have absolutely benefited from smaller faster flying higher BC projectiles and more positional practice.

I wasn’t missing game, primarily because of the types of hunts and way that the animals presented. I feel like you, most are not hectic. The one moving game I have shot was a cow bison at 100-120 yards with a 308 win shooting the 185 jugs from a seated position.

As an aside, this is why I don’t argue if someone says they can kill with a magnum and don’t see the big thing about going smaller. I could keep my 7mm and keep killing. I think that the amount of practice with rifles and building solid positions gives me the tools and skill base to know when I can make the shot.

Of course shooting a smaller caliber often changes minds, like your story. Here’s a little more why I changed to answer your question.

Because I wasn’t missing game is why the NRL Hunter match surprised me. I thought it was different enough from the PRS type matches, that’s how it was billed. I already knew that my 7mm was less effective at the PRS matches because the time to build a position seemed so much shorter. I saw the difference between a 6.5 creed and 6 creed.

But, NRL Hunter time limits still stress me too much. And, competitions give my brain “buck fever” but I feel more zen and focused with game.

Going to a smaller caliber isn’t necessary for all people and situations. I once had the conversation about specifics with Form about my AZ style hunts with Coues, and he agree it was different.

But, going to a smaller caliber is so much more pleasing and does require less focus. I think that’s what I can often read between the line in your story.

It’s not just one thing that makes many switch, but it is the cumulative effect. I think a big hangup is letting go of the fear that we would be unethical/lose game. Ultimately seeing the effect of the small bullets and the increase in effectiveness lays that fear to rest.

Ultimately, I will still keep a 7 mag in the stable because of the external ballistic advantage/recoil for the 700-1000 yard range. Here in AZ, we don’t have the wind like others and some hunts are low enough elevation/temp to drop below 1800 dos too close. At first light/last light it often calms down to virtually nil.

But, I am shooting short barrel suppressed, so I am keeping my 25 mag and 22 BR, and ultimately building a 22 creed.

 

[TaperPin]

So, honest question for you. Why is it only your doe rifle, and not a buck rifle? I assume it’s because you feel you may lose a deer, and wouldn’t want it to be a buck that you’re losing. My question would be: if you feel it’s inferior for bucks, then why would you use it on a doe?

A larger cartridge simply allows a wider variety of angles to be taken. If years or decades are put into finding an animal, everything possible is done to have the ideal combination of shootability and on animal performance to cover as many situations and angles as possible. At least where I hunt a doe is not a big deal and waiting for a nice broadside shot, and passing less than ideal shots, is normal hunting.

It’s a false narrative that we just don’t know how small cartridges kill and if we tried them we’d know - quite the opposite - the 243 is the standard first rifle of almost every kid I knew growing up. If someone wants to upgrade to a 270, 6.5, 7mm or 30 caliber, they do, but it’s not after hunting with it many times and watching family members take a wide variety of game with a wide variety of larger cartridges. A 243 hunter next to a 270 hunter can see first hand the 270 anchors animals quicker. I upgraded from 270 to 7 mag for the same reason,

 

[huntnful]

I wasn’t missing game, primarily because of the types of hunts and way that the animals presented. I feel like you, most are not hectic. The one moving game I have shot was a cow bison at 100-120 yards with a 308 win shooting the 185 jugs from a seated position.

As an aside, this is why I don’t argue if someone says they can kill with a magnum and don’t see the big thing about going smaller. I could keep my 7mm and keep killing. I think that the amount of practice with rifles and building solid positions gives me the tools and skill base to know when I can make the shot.

Of course shooting a smaller caliber often changes minds, like your story. Here’s a little more why I changed to answer your question.

Because I wasn’t missing game is why the NRL Hunter match surprised me. I thought it was different enough from the PRS type matches, that’s how it was billed. I already knew that my 7mm was less effective at the PRS matches because the time to build a position seemed so much shorter. I saw the difference between a 6.5 creed and 6 creed.

But, NRL Hunter time limits still stress me too much. And, competitions give my brain “buck fever” but I feel more zen and focused with game.

Going to a smaller caliber isn’t necessary for all people and situations. I once had the conversation about specifics with Form about my AZ style hunts with Coues, and he agree it was different.

But, going to a smaller caliber is so much more pleasing and does require less focus. I think that’s what I can often read between the line in your story.

It’s not just one thing that makes many switch, but it is the cumulative effect. I think a big hangup is letting go of the fear that we would be unethical/lose game. Ultimately seeing the effect of the small bullets and the increase in effectiveness lays that fear to rest.

Ultimately, I will still keep a 7 mag in the stable because of the external ballistic advantage/recoil for the 700-1000 yard range. Here in AZ, we don’t have the wind like others and some hunts are low enough elevation/temp to drop below 1800 dos too close. At first light/last light it often calms down to virtually nil.

But, I am shooting short barrel suppressed, so I am keeping my 25 mag and 22 BR, and ultimately building a 22 creed.

I really appreciate the in depth responses to each question. Everything you said makes 100% perfect to sense to me dude.

I love my 22 creed as well. And wouldn’t feel very handicapped at all taking it into the field.

It’s mostly the range limitations that are hard for me to personally give up I’ve finally concluded. Whether I should REALLY be shooting that far or not. It’s definitely not a thought about smaller bullets not terminally performing by any means.

 

[TaperPin]

Why not load that up with the frangible bullet of your choosing and prove to us that's a bad idea?

It’s a false narrative that that the stereotypical western hunter starts out with a large caliber, skipping over smaller cartridges. As soon as kids are old enough to shoot accurately they’ve shot a 243 at varmints then deer and antelope. The number of 243’s out west is gigantic - kids and new shooters probably take more game with it than any other. Most move up to a larger gun, but that doesn’t put us into a vacuum without any contact with reality. Larger to some is 25-06, or a 270, 6.5 of some kind, 7mm or 30. The world where we only own and shoot a single big belted magnum doesn’t exist.