Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[ElGuapo]

This doesn’t exactly makes sense to me. Energy,momentum, etc happens after the shot brakes so should have no effect on the accuracy of the first shot. If I’m not mistaken the bullet will be gone out of the barrel before that takes effect on the shooter. All things being equal with mechanics, and supports when the shot breaks, shots should just be just as accurate with a large caliber as a small caliber. Follow up shot speed and accuracy is where I would see energy and momentum potentially making a difference.

Be careful….. You’re thinking critically. Don’t you know, the smallest are the most accurate, in all circumstances. Haven’t you been around here?

 

[BBob]

Now wait a minute! You'd be hard pressed to get a 223 to stack up over time accuracy wise over a 6 PPC. Is a 6 PPC not bigger than the 223???

 

[grizz19]

That is impossible. The rifle is moving just as soon as the bullet starts moving.

Correct. Didn’t mean the rifle hasn’t started its reaction yet, I’m saying with the speed of the bullet the amount of that effect will be negligible before it’s gone. With good support and mechanics shots should be equally as accurate.

 

[hereinaz]

You’re right…..

This doesn’t exactly makes sense to me. Energy,momentum, etc happens after the shot brakes so should have no effect on the accuracy of the first shot. If I’m not mistaken the bullet will be gone out of the barrel before that takes effect on the shooter. All things being equal with mechanics, and supports when the shot breaks, shots should just be just as accurate with a large caliber as a small caliber. Follow up shot speed and accuracy is where I would see energy and momentum potentially making a difference.

Recoil has to start when the bullet moves. It’s physics. But, laws of momentum means the rifle moves slower than the bullet given the relative weights.

At 1 foot, 1 moa is .0034 inches, so it doesn’t take much. A human hair is about .002 inches.

 

[BBob]

I'd say the target world would wholly disagree with you there. It's a huge reason why many smaller cartridges are chosen these days. Big boomer 1K BR rigs used to be the norm but tracking and fast accurate return to battery in the bags has become more important than using a big bullet in a big case for better wind performance. Bigger cases do not ride the bags and return to battery as well as the small cases. 6BR's and 6BR variants rule because they don't move in the bags or move far less than the big boomers. The only time the bigger guns come out is really windy days and even then it's not that often. The big guns these days are also smaller than they used to be. If you see a magnum it'll likely be some sort of short mag rather than a 300WM or the like. In the high power world you'll also find smaller cases for similar reasons than what used to be used.

 

[grizz19]

Recoil has to start when the bullet moves. It’s physics. But, laws of momentum means the rifle moves slower than the bullet given the relative weights.

At 1 foot, 1 moa is .0034 inches, so it doesn’t take much. A human hair is about .002 inches.

Correct. I wasn’t saying that the movement hadn’t started. I’m saying the difference in movement by the time the bullet exits the barrel wont effect impacts on the initial shot. If it did, shooting a large caliber under an moa would be pretty difficult…

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

With all due respect, that opinion matters not one bit to me. I have piles and piles of dead things that would disagree. This small gun cult on RS is really impressive.

Hate to break it to you, but you’re “big magnum cult” is 10s of thousands of times larger than any “small gun cult” that may exist.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This is not universally true…. I, personally shoot an Unbraked 300 Magnum, just as well as I shoot my 22-250 or 6.5 PRC. I despise Muzzle brakes. Not everyone has a problem with recoil. I get sick of this debate.

I’ve had hundreds of shooters of all skill levels say the same or similar things. From their first time shooting a rifle being that day, to professional shooters from several different disciplines, to the “above average shooter” who likes to hunt…

In the same rifle, in the same weight, setup in the same position, you do not and will not have higher hit rates with your unbaked 300 magnum than your 22-250. That’s only a “thing” that exists on the internet. When it’s actually put to the test in real life, the amount of guys who have eaten a slice of humble pie would surprise you.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This doesn’t exactly makes sense to me. Energy,momentum, etc happens after the shot brakes so should have no effect on the accuracy of the first shot. If I’m not mistaken the bullet will be gone out of the barrel before that takes effect on the shooter.

Sorry, but you are mistaken.

 

[grizz19]

Sorry, but you are mistaken.

As I stated in comments above. I didn’t mean that the gun actually hadn’t started moving, just that there is not enough difference in movement or recoil by the time the bullet is gone to change impact caliber to caliber

 

[PathFinder]

It's not completely clear that the dividing line is small vs large caliber. The more definitive line would be scientific/objective vs dogmatic. One group is genuinely seeking to identify objective truth. The other clings to something more like an anecdote based belief. Or ego. Or perhaps emotional attachment.
Big calibers have a place; primarily for beating the wind at extreme ranges and creating more splash to identify misses. But where does that advantage really start? On paper, there's a more direct comparison than 6cm vs 30 cal magnum. For example, 6 UM vs any short->mid capacity magnum. To see a significant increase in effective range requires a major jump up in case capacity. Think Lapua improved and up. The difference between the traditional "big" cartridges and mid-> short magnum capacity 6mm-6.5s is marginal, both in terms of external and terminal ballistics.
My move to a 6mm was the result of seeing a 30 cal magnum (shooting ELDs) not do anything significantly more than the 6.5 CM I hunted with prior. It worked very well, but didn't do anything the 6.5 didn't with a comparable bullet. The only thing is did do is cost me follow up shots and required more attention to shoot well in the field. The 6 UM is superior in terms of external ballistics, equal in terms of terminal ballistics, and allows me to spot shots and follow up quickly.
Any ethereal benefits from "energy" are negligible vs what is lost to heavy recoil. I have found that spotting shots and following up quickly, in real field situations, is much more valuable than a marginally larger wound channel. I have never seen any mystical energy incapacitate an animal with poor shot placement.
Another point that is entirely misunderstood is that low recoil isn't about being able to "handle" a cartridge. It's not a matter of comfort, or a flinch. Rifles move before the bullet exits the barrel. The amount it moves is positively correlated to recoil, and inversely correlated to increased rifle weight. And yes, it is quantitatively significant from small calibers to large ones. Litz has the only body of research I'm aware of on the topic.

 

[HuntHarder]

12 is also incorrect as shown on hornadys law enforcement site. There are smaller caliber ELDM bullets that penetrate deeper in gel than 30 cal ELDM bullets.

Appreciate it, I added a little verbage that I was missing. Am I correct in saying a 225gr eldm 300rum will penetrate deeper than an 80gr eldm .223 if both entrance velocities are the same? Say both at 1800 fps.

Another poster posted about bullet construction in that bullet makers are making all their bullets to effectively penetrate the same, regardless of caliber. This is interesting to me if true, which it very well could be in fragmenting type bullets.

@PathFinder Great post, thanks

 

[Ucsdryder]

I’ve had hundreds of shooters of all skill levels say the same or similar things. From their first time shooting a rifle being that day, to professional shooters from several different disciplines, to the “above average shooter” who likes to hunt…

In the same rifle, in the same weight, setup in the same position, you do not and will not have higher hit rates with your unbaked 300 magnum than your 22-250. That’s only a “thing” that exists on the internet. When it’s actually put to the test in real life, the amount of guys who have eaten a slice of humble pie would surprise you.

Do you think this is caused by the shooter flinching due to recoil? Or caused by recoil affecting the bullet before it exits the barrel?

 

[Ishootgunssometimes]

I’ll just be over here with my 7mm’s

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Do you think this is caused by the shooter flinching due to recoil? Or caused by recoil affecting the bullet before it exits the barrel?

Both.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

As I stated in comments above. I didn’t mean that the gun actually hadn’t started moving, just that there is not enough difference in movement or recoil by the time the bullet is gone to change impact caliber to caliber

In a hunting gun, which most folks want somewhere around 8 lbs all in, it absolutely is enough difference in movement or recoil to change impact.

 

[Speaks]

I would guess that this is not strictly small vs large caliber? And that its really between select high performing cartridges within each size range? 30-30 is not entering the debate for example, cant think of one on the small side.

 

[Quandary]

You are saying you can shoot the rifle that is more accurate, more accurately?
How about your 300PRC vs 22LR @50’? This would apply more to the topic.

Why did you choose.22lr to compare?

The point is that shooters are able to break more mechanically precise shots when there is less energy/momentum/etc moving the rifle at the shot.

A blanket statement was made "All shooters can shoot a lower recoiling round more accurately". The point is like virtually every statement of opinion in the redundant discussion of big versus small bore is an over simplified generalization. It depends on the shooter and the shooting situation, sometimes the smallbore can be more more accurate, sometimes the big bore can be more accurate it depends and its variable.

Personally I have no problem with people choosing to use a 22ARC on Elk as long as they use discretion on their shot choices. Put in the right spot that will kill an Elk just fine. I prefer my 300WM, 300PRC or 7PRC for Elk sized game and bigger. It gives me more flexibility in shot choice. As for accuracy I can't remember the last time I killed something that wasn't on the first shot, bigger bored stuff works just fine for me in the accuracy department. As long as you use what you use to take clean quick killing shots go for it, to each their own.

 

[Hunter270Win]

I think that the smaller caliber folks are a bit reactionary for a reason. In my own life I have been ridiculed for using a .270 and people dismiss it simply because… the caliber starts with a .2 and not a .3. I know it seems ridiculous but it happens all of the time.

I know of people here in Texas that will, with a straight face, tell you that you need a 300 win mag for our whitetail. My uncle used to be a magnum guy until he got a .350 legend and realized he just wasted time, money, and shoulder pain.

If you’re comfortable with a .300 WM for whitetail/elk or whatever then so be it. If you’re comfortable with a .223 for whitetail/elk or whatever then so be it. The Bible says “Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind” (this isn’t pertaining to caliber choice ofc but you get the point).

If they harvest their animals and don’t cause mayhem… who cares?

 

[HuntHarder]

The accuracy statement, in my OPINION, has some truth but is not absolutely true in all scenarios. For instance, I am able to, at 200 yards, produce a similar sized group with my 300 win mag as I do with my .223. Shooting both from a comfortable prone position allows for this in my opinion. No rushing of the shot, taking the shot when I am ready. Now If I was trying to become a more accomplished shooter, I would absolutely agree that when time pressure and different shooting positions enter, a low recoiling round would be better suited. Mainly the shooting position aspect of it.

When I end up shooting longer range (for me it starts around 300 yards) while hunting, I will not take the shot unless it is not a rushed shot and I have time to actually calculate and get a solid shooting base. No doubt it has cost me a couple shot opportunities. I am not a good enough shot to shoot from multiple different positions at longer range. I do not gun hunt near enough, to have the practice to be good at it.