Knight pergerine

[Samg1707]

I’m going to be buying a knight peregrine to take over for my knight mk85. As I dove deeper into the pergeriene (.40 cal) I’ve come across stuff I know nothing about when it comes to muzzleloaders.

What is annealing muzzleloader bullets?

Solid copper rounds vs cast rounds and the difference between how you need to shoot them?

Any help will be great as I don’t want to mess anything up on the new rifle.

 

[ElDiablito]

The Peregrine is a nice rifle according to the few guys I’ve heard that shoot them. Keep in mind though that a .40 (vs a .45 or .50) will dramatically limit your bullet options.

I’m guessing you’re talking about annealing a monometal like a Barnes or Cutting Edge to size it and shoot it bullet-to-bore (without a sabot)?

Annealing a solid is just heating it up and then quenching it quickly to soften it. Usually so that you can run it through a sizing die (which you will need if you plan to shoot bullet to bore). People say that annealing may help with obturation as well.

Shooting a lead bullet is not a lot different from shooting a mono. The lead bullet will likely deposit lead in your bore but will obturate more quickly but may be easier to get to shoot well.

Easiest route with the Peregrine would be a traditional jacketed lead core bullet like a Parker, Fury or Pittman bullet.

 

[Samg1707]

You nailed it right on the head with what I was trying to ask so thank you,
Could I get the same type of ballistics and distance out of a 45 cal shooting a 40w/sabot?

Also is there a huge benefit in shooting bullet to bore?

The pergerine comes with the bullet sizer and sizing wrench

Thanks again for the info

 

[ElDiablito]

Could I get the same type of ballistics and distance out of a 45 cal shooting a 40w/sabot?

Also is there a huge benefit in shooting bullet to bore?

The Peregrine has an advertised max speed of 3000 fps - that’s fast - and probably a little exaggerated. (I’m shooting custom smokeless .45s and that’s a tough speed to reach.) The Peregrine is approved for up to 160 gr by volume of bp subs, which is more than most (all) other factory .45 I believe.

There are some pros and some cons to shooting a sized bullet bullet-to-bore. Pro: probably slightly better accuracy (lower dispersion); Cons: the bullet must be sized very precisely (if it’s not, it either falls down the barrel or you have to hammer it down) and the fit can change with fouling, temperature, etc; may not be as weatherproof as a saboted bullet, and many of the bullets made for bullet to bore are soft lead/thin jacketed bullets (not great for bigger/tougher game).

The other thing to consider. If you haven’t, is that several western states have a .45 or .50 caliber minimum for big game.

 

[Samg1707]

You’re definetly making me reconsider the pergeriene. I don’t compete with black powder and really only use them for hunting. I thought about the western hunting but will still have a 50cal for that when I do make it out west. The .45 that I like is the paramount htr from cva but I’ve read some negative reviews on them regarding barrels. Almost seems like the pergeriene is more hassle to mess with

 

[ElDiablito]

Yeah, personally, I’m not a fan of anything made by CVA. Lot of issues with many of their muzzys. And, to me the .40s are not really very versatile.

You might consider a Knight Ultra Lite in .45.

Ultra-Lite–Olive Green Stock - Knight Rifles

Can be ordered with Full Plastic Jacket, Bare Primer, #11 or Musket Cap. Washington State, New Mexico, and Colorado laws: 209 Ignition or Western Ignition Only. Sights Only, No Optics. 100% American Made Muzzleloaders. ALL FIREARM SALES ARE FINAL – NO RETURNS ON RIFLES.

www.muzzleloaders.com

 

[ENCORE]

You nailed it right on the head with what I was trying to ask so thank you,
Could I get the same type of ballistics and distance out of a 45 cal shooting a 40w/sabot?

Also is there a huge benefit in shooting bullet to bore?

The pergerine comes with the bullet sizer and sizing wrench

Thanks again for the info

The sabot is the weakest link. Always has been. Heat is the ENEMY with sabots.

Accuracy at LONG RANGE is better with bullet to bore. I can guarantee you, the best shooters in the Nation shoot bullet to bore. Nobody uses sabots in highly accurate shooting. So, is there a benefit in shooting bullet to bore? Yes. That's fact.

Sizing bullets is a simple process but, one that has to be learned to a point. Bullets sized to load at around 9# to 12# in a CLEAN BORE, will load approximately around 18# to 25# with a fouled bore.

Annealing bullets isn't necessary, because bullets that must be annealed are not long range bullets.
I've shot 10's of thousands of Barnes bullets, harvested hundreds of animals with them. However, they are not considered long range muzzleloader bullets. Their BC is just slightly better than a rock.

There are much better bullets with much higher BC's for distance. My personal preference for long range, to 1,000yds are the Arrowhead XLD bullets. For long range, the heavier 350gr XLD.
Others include Parker, Fury, Alco and Pittman. Yes, we shoot competitively to 1,000yds and do so using 120grs VOLUME of BH209. Last June I took 1st place, a couple weeks back we shot again and I took 2nd.
If............ you intend to shoot LONG RANGE and to 1,000yds, you'll need a 40moa mount, even with a scope with 100moa of vertical adjustment. A 30moa mount might work if you have 100moa of vertical adjustment. Shooting competitively, a 20moa mount and scope with 100moa vertical adjustment is not enough. You would have to hold over.

CVA has WAY TOO MANY QC problems with both their 40's and 45's. Barrel twists should be 1:20 maximum and better at 1:18 or faster. They didn't listen............. They actually stopped production of the 45's and 40's.

Speaking only for myself........... If I wanted a 40cal and couldn't afford a complete custom rifle, the Peregrine is without question the production rifle I'd purchase. The 1:16 twist would be excellent for long heavy bullets for long range target and hunting.

 

[Samg1707]

The sabot is the weakest link. Always has been. Heat is the ENEMY with sabots.

Accuracy at LONG RANGE is better with bullet to bore. I can guarantee you, the best shooters in the Nation shoot bullet to bore. Nobody uses sabots in highly accurate shooting. So, is there a benefit in shooting bullet to bore? Yes. That's fact.

Sizing bullets is a simple process but, one that has to be learned to a point. Bullets sized to load at around 9# to 12# in a CLEAN BORE, will load approximately around 18# to 25# with a fouled bore.

Annealing bullets isn't necessary, because bullets that must be annealed are not long range bullets.
I've shot 10's of thousands of Barnes bullets, harvested hundreds of animals with them. However, they are not considered long range muzzleloader bullets. Their BC is just slightly better than a rock.

There are much better bullets with much higher BC's for distance. My personal preference for long range, to 1,000yds are the Arrowhead XLD bullets. For long range, the heavier 350gr XLD.
Others include Parker, Fury, Alco and Pittman. Yes, we shoot competitively to 1,000yds and do so using 120grs VOLUME of BH209. Last June I took 1st place, a couple weeks back we shot again and I took 2nd.
If............ you intend to shoot LONG RANGE and to 1,000yds, you'll need a 40moa mount, even with a scope with 100moa of vertical adjustment. A 30moa mount might work if you have 100moa of vertical adjustment. Shooting competitively, a 20moa mount and scope with 100moa vertical adjustment is not enough. You would have to hold over.

CVA has WAY TOO MANY QC problems with both their 40's and 45's. Barrel twists should be 1:20 maximum and better at 1:18 or faster. They didn't listen............. They actually stopped production of the 45's and 40's.

Speaking only for myself........... If I wanted a 40cal and couldn't afford a complete custom rifle, the Peregrine is without question the production rifle I'd purchase. The 1:16 twist would be excellent for long heavy bullets for long range target and hunting.

Thanks for all the info, I was shying away from the cvas because of those reasons, I’m not going to drop the coin on a custom muzzleloader and just want something to reach out for hunting and mess around with at the range. What’s the best performing long distance hunting round for the 40s?
Also when it comes to sizing the bullets for the field, how many shots can I get away with before the clean bore size vs fouled bore really start to make a difference?

 

[ElDiablito]

Also when it comes to sizing the bullets for the field, how many shots can I get away with before the clean bore size vs fouled bore really start to make a difference?

One. Most of us test fit bullets while sizing in a clean bore but always keep it fouled while shooting/hunting.

Bullet to bore is great on the 1000 yard range - not so practical while hunting. Many of us prefer a sabot while hunting.

 

[ENCORE]

.............. What’s the best performing long distance hunting round for the 40s?
Also when it comes to sizing the bullets for the field, how many shots can I get away with before the clean bore size vs fouled bore really start to make a difference?

The best performing long distance hunting round for the 40's........... Either the XLD, which is my preference, or Parker. Shot placement is everything, but you already know that.

Your second question............. What is the difference are you questioning? Increased force?

Using this example... If you size your bullets to 9# in a clean bore, you'll end up with roughly 18# +/- fouled when using BH. 18# of loading force isn't hard at all. Unlike other substitutes, BH can be shot MANY times without having to swab between rounds. I've fired 50 rounds without swabbing. BH doesn't harden like other substitutes and if the barrel is fouled and the bullet loads say at 23# fouled, it'll remain easy to load and seat the bullet. Many competitors never swab between rounds. We're talking shooting at an X of 1/2" at 100yds and 1" at 200yds.

If you're going to spend $1,500 on a rifle to shoot and possibly hunt at long range, why wouldn't you want to shoot what's most accurate? There is absolutely no benefit to using sabots over bullet to bore while hunting. A sabot is the weakest link and always has been. Its why more and more shooters/hunters are starting to shoot bullet to bore. The best shooters in the Nation are also hunters and they do not use sabots. Now, if you're hunting and shooting at ranges of 200yds or less, it doesn't matter, use what one likes.

Sizing bullets is NOT HARD, nor is it hard to find the right loading forces. There isn't any such thing as just a "go no-go". You can size bullets to load to any force you prefer, or your rifle prefers.
Also, the bullets that are being shot bullet to bore, are not thin jacketed bullets. Now you can order them from .. some .. manufacturers with a thinner jacket but, the most accurate bullets to date, are bullets with at least a .021" jacket. There's not an animal in North America I would not hunt with a 300gr or 350gr XLD. A .021" jacket will obturate perfectly with just a 120gr VOLUME charge of BH. Even the .028" jacket on a parker will obturate perfectly with that charge. You would be able to go way beyond that charge with the Peregrine.
Case in point, I have over 300 Pittman bullets with special jackets made at .015". I use them for fouling when shooting BH.

If you're set on the 40, the Peregrine is the production rifle I'd purchase. I would do one thing to the rifle though, and that is to change the ignition system to a modular system. No carbon buildup. By the way, the Peregrine has won a National Championship, maybe even two.

Forgot........ Also be aware that shooting heavy charges creates recoil. If you want to shoot heavy charges, then at some point you may want a muzzle brake. If you shoot sabots, you may be SOL. You would be forced to use a radial brake with sabots, which must be over bored. Radials kick up dust and dirt like no tomorrow. Tactical brakes reduce much more recoil, don't blow up dirt and work perfectly when using bullet to bore using a load through funnel.

 

[Samg1707]

The best performing long distance hunting round for the 40's........... Either the XLD, which is my preference, or Parker. Shot placement is everything, but you already know that.

Your second question............. What is the difference are you questioning? Increased force?

Using this example... If you size your bullets to 9# in a clean bore, you'll end up with roughly 18# +/- fouled when using BH. 18# of loading force isn't hard at all. Unlike other substitutes, BH can be shot MANY times without having to swab between rounds. I've fired 50 rounds without swabbing. BH doesn't harden like other substitutes and if the barrel is fouled and the bullet loads say at 23# fouled, it'll remain easy to load and seat the bullet. Many competitors never swab between rounds. We're talking shooting at an X of 1/2" at 100yds and 1" at 200yds.

If you're going to spend $1,500 on a rifle to shoot and possibly hunt at long range, why wouldn't you want to shoot what's most accurate? There is absolutely no benefit to using sabots over bullet to bore while hunting. A sabot is the weakest link and always has been. Its why more and more shooters/hunters are starting to shoot bullet to bore. The best shooters in the Nation are also hunters and they do not use sabots. Now, if you're hunting and shooting at ranges of 200yds or less, it doesn't matter, use what one likes.

Sizing bullets is NOT HARD, nor is it hard to find the right loading forces. There isn't any such thing as just a "go no-go". You can size bullets to load to any force you prefer, or your rifle prefers.
Also, the bullets that are being shot bullet to bore, are not thin jacketed bullets. Now you can order them from .. some .. manufacturers with a thinner jacket but, the most accurate bullets to date, are bullets with at least a .021" jacket. There's not an animal in North America I would not hunt with a 300gr or 350gr XLD. A .021" jacket will obturate perfectly with just a 120gr VOLUME charge of BH. Even the .028" jacket on a parker will obturate perfectly with that charge. You would be able to go way beyond that charge with the Peregrine.
Case in point, I have over 300 Pittman bullets with special jackets made at .015". I use them for fouling when shooting BH.

If you're set on the 40, the Peregrine is the production rifle I'd purchase. I would do one thing to the rifle though, and that is to change the ignition system to a modular system. No carbon buildup. By the way, the Peregrine has won a National Championship, maybe even two.

Forgot........ Also be aware that shooting heavy charges creates recoil. If you want to shoot heavy charges, then at some point you may want a muzzle brake. If you shoot sabots, you may be SOL. You would be forced to use a radial brake with sabots, which must be over bored. Radials kick up dust and dirt like no tomorrow. Tactical brakes reduce much more recoil, don't blow up dirt and work perfectly when using bullet to bore using a load through funnel.

This is all the info I’ve been looking for when it comes to the pergerine, new to the new muzzleloading tech and don’t know anyone around me that’s serious about it. I’m going to go with the pergerine espically being able to shoot that many rounds through it without needing to swab.
Does bh mean black horn?
I also didn’t know what the # equaled loading force
Thanks for all of the help and sorry if some of the questions seem dumb, you don’t know till you know as they say

 

[ENCORE]

LOL The only dumb question is the one that's never asked.

Yes, BH is short for Blackhorn 209.

Just know that this game can get very expensive, depending on how far you might want to go. There's no bottom to the rabbit hole! One of the other shooters figured it out, that every shot he took cost him $5.70. Propellant cost, bullets, primers, etc.
Over the 10-12th of this month, I sent 91 rounds in competition. If he's right, that's $518. No bottom to the rabbit hole...........................

 

[ElDiablito]

Let us know how it works out for you, here and on a dedicated muzzleloading site like modernmuzzleloader.

 

[Samg1707]

LOL The only dumb question is the one that's never asked.

Yes, BH is short for Blackhorn 209.

Just know that this game can get very expensive, depending on how far you might want to go. There's no bottom to the rabbit hole! One of the other shooters figured it out, that every shot he took cost him $5.70. Propellant cost, bullets, primers, etc.
Over the 10-12th of this month, I sent 91 rounds in competition. If he's right, that's $518. No bottom to the rabbit hole...........................

Oh everything with shooting is expensive, already have my toes dipped in uspsa, prs and hunting so I know the rabbit hole already, I don’t think I can take on shooting muzzleloaders at that level you are lol I’ll be sure to update how the pergerine performs and hopefully have a couple kills with it right away in September when early muzzleloader opens up. Thanks again fellas

 

[wesleylee1984]

Had been raining of the Peregrine myself this thread really helped push me towards picking one up. Thanks everyone!!

 

[Verde]

The sabot is the weakest link. Always has been. Heat is the ENEMY with sabots.

Accuracy at LONG RANGE is better with bullet to bore. I can guarantee you, the best shooters in the Nation shoot bullet to bore. Nobody uses sabots in highly accurate shooting. So, is there a benefit in shooting bullet to bore? Yes. That's fact.

Sizing bullets is a simple process but, one that has to be learned to a point. Bullets sized to load at around 9# to 12# in a CLEAN BORE, will load approximately around 18# to 25# with a fouled bore.

Annealing bullets isn't necessary, because bullets that must be annealed are not long range bullets.
I've shot 10's of thousands of Barnes bullets, harvested hundreds of animals with them. However, they are not considered long range muzzleloader bullets. Their BC is just slightly better than a rock.

There are much better bullets with much higher BC's for distance. My personal preference for long range, to 1,000yds are the Arrowhead XLD bullets. For long range, the heavier 350gr XLD.
Others include Parker, Fury, Alco and Pittman. Yes, we shoot competitively to 1,000yds and do so using 120grs VOLUME of BH209. Last June I took 1st place, a couple weeks back we shot again and I took 2nd.
If............ you intend to shoot LONG RANGE and to 1,000yds, you'll need a 40moa mount, even with a scope with 100moa of vertical adjustment. A 30moa mount might work if you have 100moa of vertical adjustment. Shooting competitively, a 20moa mount and scope with 100moa vertical adjustment is not enough. You would have to hold over.

CVA has WAY TOO MANY QC problems with both their 40's and 45's. Barrel twists should be 1:20 maximum and better at 1:18 or faster. They didn't listen............. They actually stopped production of the 45's and 40's.

Speaking only for myself........... If I wanted a 40cal and couldn't afford a complete custom rifle, the Peregrine is without question the production rifle I'd purchase. The 1:16 twist would be excellent for long heavy bullets for long range target and hunting.

FNG here, Can you elaborate on sizing for a Peregrine? And what one should expect when loading it down the barrel? My initial loads will be BH 209 with Federal209a, with the 250 grain Fury black tips. Thanks

 

[ElDiablito]

Seems that at least some of the Peregrines have QC issues. There’s a member on a muzzy forum currently having issues with his - inconsistent bore (sized bullet free falls down the barrel a ways before hitting the lands) and weird off-center firing pin strikes.

 

[Verde]

Yes I read those threads as well. Hopefully it's isolated. I'm not familiar with the whole bullet sizing for MLers. I don't understand why it's different from centerfire bullets where you just buy them sized for your caliber.

Verde

 

[ENCORE]

Yes I read those threads as well. Hopefully it's isolated. I'm not familiar with the whole bullet sizing for MLers. I don't understand why it's different from centerfire bullets where you just buy them sized for your caliber.

Verde

I only know of one with a barrel issue.......
The reason is, there's no common specification/s as with centerfire rifles.
CVA has had the largest QC problem with their 40's and 45's and stopped making both. Their reason, now get this, is that BH209 is to hard to find. The barrels were so inconsistent, they could have been built better by a group of monkeys.
Just get excited and it'll work out.

 

[Verde]

Ok, so when it gets here I’ll size a bullet to fit snug at the muzzle. When I push it down if it’s consistent all the way down I’ll know I have good barrel?