Klamath River Dam Removal

[Pony Soldier]

On the edge son.

 

[menhaden_man]

The dams on the snake barely produce any power, they're mainly to facilitate barge traffic. Something that wouldn't be necessary if we still had a rail system.

Free the Snake!

Over 3,000 MW is not trivial. The main reason they only produce around 1,000 MW is because spill requirements.

 

[menhaden_man]

If they did away with the Snake Dams then in theory the lower snake comp $$$ would eventually disappear. Salmon and steelhead would collapse without that hatchery production, guaranteed.

Elwah is another misnomer - the tribes are jacking that system full of hatchery fish. They’ll never back off. Check out the lawsuits from wild fish advocates it’s bananas.

 

[Q child]

But the green's don't want the only practical, unlimited and carbon free energy there is.

First rule of thermodynamics: ∆U=Q-W. All energy is limited.

 

[Dirtscoots]

Blows my mind hydro isn’t considered green energy. Yet it works. Before the dams these fish were making it up water falls. Sea lions are no different then wolves on elk populations. Also commercial and sport fisheries are regulated but there are “quotas” not like a draw if you compare to big game hunting and the popularity of fishing has gotten insane. I used to enjoy salmon fishing. I live in a coastal town with a great run spring and fall. I refuse to compete to try and catch a fish. I don’t know what the right answer is I don’t think there is a perfect situation either way.

 

[z987k]

Another falsehood
The ground fish fishery (rockfish, cod et el) off California is extremely regulated and bycatch is counted. The interaction of salmon and shelf dwelling cod is extremely limited based on depth restrictions of cod fishery and salmon habitat
Salmon near shore cod well offshore
The areas of concern off Monterey canyon down to moss landing where salmon routinely interact have shortened trawl seasons to account and have been closed because of interaction
All the info you could ever dream of is available with the pfmc.
But bycatch is counted in the high hundreds to low thousands and sport catch in The hundreds of thousands.
Regardless - all the possible fishing interactions pale in comparrison to the damage of water diversion and dams.
Other red herrings- Striped bass, climate change, racism, forest fires-have all been equally debunked.


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There's less the 10% observer coverage last I checked on the trawl boats, so we have no idea what so ever what the actual number is, only that it's 100% for sure higher than reported.
The NPFMC is a corrupt POS institution ran by the very people they're supposed to govern. The lot of them belong in prison.

For the year we're at 16.5k Chinook salmon bycatch. Sport caught? 0. The fishery is collapsed and destroyed so there's no sport fishing for kings.
2.9 million lbs of wasted Halibut. More than the sport fishery will take, which is limited to 2 per person per year.
600,000 crab. More than the non existent sport fishery will take since it's closed due to collapse.

The trawl boats need to be on the bottom of the ocean before we'll see any rebound.

 

[z987k]

First rule of thermodynamics: ∆U=Q-W. All energy is limited.

When there's enough of it to sustain us and all future growth until the sun engulfs the earth, it's for all practical purposes, unlimited. You can treat the resource as if it will never run out, because on this planet it won't.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

Problem is, the people who want the dams removed have:

A) No clue how much power they produce
B) How that power is going to be replaced
C) Are against nuclear power

So this is what we are up against. Stupid people.

 

[Dirtscoots]

Problem is, the people who want the dams removed have:

A) No clue how much power they produce
B) How that power is going to be replaced
C) Are against nuclear power

So this is what we are up against. Stupid people.

Very well said in an extremely simple way. Only thing I will add is
D) they have zero idea how much their wind mills and off shore wind mills and solar , create power wise as well in comparison especially when you take into account maintenance and longevity.

 

[Sea Rover]

The Salmon will never thrive because they will never get thru the tribal harvest! Remove all the Dams you want but it will not help!

 

[LostWapiti]

Another falsehood
The ground fish fishery (rockfish, cod et el) off California is extremely regulated and bycatch is counted. The interaction of salmon and shelf dwelling cod is extremely limited based on depth restrictions of cod fishery and salmon habitat
Salmon near shore cod well offshore
The areas of concern off Monterey canyon down to moss landing where salmon routinely interact have shortened trawl seasons to account and have been closed because of interaction
All the info you could ever dream of is available with the pfmc.
But bycatch is counted in the high hundreds to low thousands and sport catch in The hundreds of thousands.
Regardless - all the possible fishing interactions pale in comparrison to the damage of water diversion and dams.
Other red herrings- Striped bass, climate change, racism, forest fires-have all been equally debunked.


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Alaska bycatch of Chinook and other salmon while trawling for Pollock is indeed extremely high. And that is only what is documented and only what is caught by US boats. There is a strong suspicion that foreign boats are pillaging out salmon and are completely unregulated. https://www.npfmc.org/fisheries-issues/bycatch/salmon-bycatch/

 

[Dirtscoots]

The Salmon will never thrive because they will never get thru the tribal harvest! Remove all the Dams you want but it will not help!

Maybe some tribes do things differently than the ones I’m familiar with. This is plain not true. With the restrictions the “tribes” still have to obey even gill netting they are not putting that much damage to the salmon population. I do not have solid statistics to share. All I have is the word of my uncle that was proud to be the heritage he had. I used to think similar maybe the Indians are taking so much of the fisheries. That simply is not fact. It’s actually bs. And anyone that wants to pack that rant I have no use for.

 

[LostWapiti]

Blows my mind hydro isn’t considered green energy. Yet it works. Before the dams these fish were making it up water falls. Sea lions are no different then wolves on elk populations. Also commercial and sport fisheries are regulated but there are “quotas” not like a draw if you compare to big game hunting and the popularity of fishing has gotten insane. I used to enjoy salmon fishing. I live in a coastal town with a great run spring and fall. I refuse to compete to try and catch a fish. I don’t know what the right answer is I don’t think there is a perfect situation either way.

As I understand a lot of the impact is not as much on up migrating fish as it is down migrating fish. Strong flows are an important part of their success in making it back to the ocean. Smolts actually don’t swim to the ocean but actually face upstream and let the current push them down. Reservoirs impede this, make hostile water, and chew the smolts up in turbines.

 

[Dirtscoots]

As I understand a lot of the impact is not as much on up migrating fish as it is down migrating fish. Strong flows are an important part of their success in making it back to the ocean. Smolts actually don’t swim to the ocean but actually face upstream and let the current push them down. Reservoirs impede this, make hostile water, and chew the smolts up in turbines.

My grandpa told me a long time ago there is no shame in taking up a trade. I’m clearly not educated on this and that is information I haven’t read. Very interesting. Thank you.

 

[amassi]

Alaska bycatch of Chinook and other salmon while trawling for Pollock is indeed extremely high. And that is only what is documented and only what is caught by US boats. There is a strong suspicion that foreign boats are pillaging out salmon and are completely unregulated. https://www.npfmc.org/fisheries-issues/bycatch/salmon-bycatch/

I know nothing and less about Alaska
I was speaking only about the California coast
Our fishery is impacted by Klamath returns, our fish also inhabit 90% I shore habitat under 180’
Cod are rare on our bight under 400’
Ie bycatch is low low low and not a factor in salmon closures.


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[LostWapiti]

I know nothing and less about Alaska
I was speaking only about the California coast
Our fishery is impacted by Klamath returns, our fish also inhabit 90% I shore habitat under 180’
Cod are rare on our bight under 400’
Ie bycatch is low low low and not a factor in salmon closures.


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As I understand salmon make a giant loop in the Pacific so the bycatch in Alaska or the commercial harvest in BC could be heavily impacting fish returns in CA.

Agreed that the fisheries in CA are carefully managed and they are not dealing with the bycatch issues, at least from boats in CA waters.

 

[amassi]

As I understand salmon make a giant loop in the Pacific so the bycatch in Alaska or the commercial harvest in BC could be heavily impacting fish returns in CA.

Agreed that the fisheries in CA are carefully managed and they are not dealing with the bycatch issues, at least from boats in CA waters.

They do not
Our fish do get caught In Oregon and infrequently in the Columbia
Klamath fish actually go south down below moss landing and spend most of their lives between there and brookings Oregon.
Obviously some fish stray, Oregon catches a lot of our supplemental fish from the Mokulmne river.
But they aren’t ending up in Alaska, Columbia fish maybe


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[LostWapiti]

They do not
Our fish do get caught In Oregon and infrequently in the Columbia
Klamath fish actually go south down below moss landing and spend most of their lives between there and brookings Oregon.
Obviously some fish stray, Oregon catches a lot of our supplemental fish from the Mokulmne river.
But they aren’t ending up in Alaska, Columbia fish maybe


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I’d like to learn more about this but can’t find anything on it. Do you by chance have any research you have seen on it?

 

[Rotnguns]

The dams on the snake barely produce any power, they're mainly to facilitate barge traffic. Something that wouldn't be necessary if we still had a rail system.

Free the Snake!

The four dams on the Snake river provide a very significant contribution to the grid - about 1 Gigawatt of fixed annualized power over the last few years. Their nameplate capacity is considerably higher. They represent about 4% of the total energy conversion in the Northwest.

 

[Rotnguns]

First rule of thermodynamics: ∆U=Q-W. All energy is limited.

Gotta love any hunting forum that inspires a discussion of the First Law of Thermodynamics! Reminds me of what my old professor said in my first thermo course: According to the first law, you can only break even. According to the second law, you can't even do that.