Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[Jimbob]

I stand behind my comment. What you decide to conclude from the comment is up to you. I am not implying that they are equal but just stating what I saw. I said it as an observation not as a conclusion.

These are the facts I see from your tests:
1. You found some ammo that shoots well in the tikka but not all factory ammo shot well
2. The ammo of your best 3 shot group from the kimber when not using a rear bag (which was an ok group) you did not test with an 8 shot group and a rear bag.

I do not think the tikka performed much better than the kimber. Yes it was better but not head and shoulders. The tikka proved to be pretty picky with ammo as well. I think it is still up in the air to see if the kimber will shoot a factory ammo close to 1 moa. However, how many factory ammos should you try before enough is enough is very valid. I would have taken advice from other kimber owners what ammo they use and tried those. After that I would not want to spend hundreds of $$$ finding the one ammo.

 

[luke moffat]

I agree. The Kimber isn't living up to YOUR standards.

 

[Rorschach]

That's definitely a fair assessment - Tikka was better, but not in a different universe when compared with the Kimber's accuracy.

If I did take it out to shoot it again, I'd definitely try the 150gr Fusions (when I get a chance to pick some more up).

Now, the cleaning stuff, I have very little faith that it will change anything, so that probably goes towards the end of the 'list of things to try'.

I stand behind my comment. What you decide to conclude from the comment is up to you. I am not implying that they are equal but just stating what I saw. I said it as an observation not as a conclusion.

These are the facts I see from your tests:
1. You found some ammo that shoots well in the tikka but not all factory ammo shot well
2. The ammo of your best 3 shot group from the kimber when not using a rear bag (which was an ok group) you did not test with an 8 shot group and a rear bag.

I do not think the tikka performed much better than the kimber. Yes it was better but not head and shoulders. The tikka proved to be pretty picky with ammo as well. I think it is still up in the air to see if the kimber will shoot a factory ammo close to 1 moa. However, how many factory ammos should you try before enough is enough is very valid. I would have taken advice from other kimber owners what ammo they use and tried those. After that I would not want to spend hundreds of $$$ finding the one ammo.

 

[Rorschach]

The implication is that my standards/expectations were unrealistic for the Kimber? Not sure what your comment really means, otherwise - any rifle will live up to someone's standards, being that there are conceivably people who are fine with a 5moa rifle.

I'd just like to see what ammo they use to validate their 'guarantee'. Granted, it is only a 3-shot guarantee, but does that mean that if it shoots a 3-shot group one time out of 20 3-shot group attempts, then it 'meets' their guarantee? Or does it mean that it will shoot a <1moa 3-shot group every time (or a reasonable percentage of those times) it's fired? Do they just fire groups with their choice ammo until they get <1moa extreme spread, then send it back saying that it meets their standard?

I'd lean towards saying the rifle doesn't live up to Kimber's own standards. Realistically, a single 3-shot <1moa group doesn't mean that it'll shoot that every time, or even most of the time. So, their 'standard' being 3-shots <1moa, it doesn't look like it meets this standard, or that it at least has a high likelihood of meeting this standard (with any of the ammo I tried). Hence why I'm curious about the type of ammo they're using to be able to turn rifles out from the factory that meet this guarantee they have.

I agree. The Kimber isn't living up to YOUR standards.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm leaning towards getting some more 150gr Fusions to put through the Kimber, if for no other reason than to be able to stop guessing/speculating on what the group would have been with a bag and more rounds.

The fact that shooting 8-round groups through it today didn't do much to increase group size from the 3-shot groups gives me hope that the 3-shot groups, at least in the cases of the ammunition types fired for 8 shots this morning, may have been representative of the rifle's actual capability.

 

[Trial153]

What a load of crap. Let's talk about the elephant sitting in the corner and add so real world valuation. Not only the tikka performed better, it performed better approximately at half the cost of the Kimber.

 

[Rorschach]

Luke, do you feel that I've been unfair with anything I've posted/presented? Do you feel like I've falsely represented anything, as far as you can tell or have reason to believe?

I agree. The Kimber isn't living up to YOUR standards.

 

[mtnwrunner]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words...................

Out of the box Tikka T3 6.5 x 55 swede. Now these are handloads but load development was just stupid easy.
I know a lot of guys on RS like kimbers and some like tikkas but you have gone way above the call of duty.
Sell the kimber to Luke or Greg, concentrate on the tikka and be happy And they'll be happy too.................

Randy

 

[TBossHSauce]

I'll buy it for the scrap value in the metal since it obviously broke and should be sent to the chopping block In all seriousness though, if you aren't happy, send it back.

There are a lot of variables in shot groupings and I admire your attempt to group 8 shot strings. However, in my experience, a three shot group is about all the slim barrels in modern ultra-lite rifles can handle in one sitting. Let them cool 3,5,25, 3 hours? who knows. Are you letting it cool in the shade? In the sun? Etc. Is the ambient temperature the same throughout etc. etc.

If one is really curious on how well a rifle groups then find an indoor range to take away atmospherics, shoot one shot, clean and put up the gun. Come back the next day, shoot one shot, repeat. Repeat until you've shot 3, 5, 25, 100 shells or as many as your heart desires....cuz in a hunting environment the first shot is the shot that counts anyway.

 

[AK Troutbum]

View attachment 46752They say a picture is worth a thousand words...................

Out of the box Tikka T3 6.5 x 55 swede. Now these are handloads but load development was just stupid easy.
I know a lot of guys on RS like kimbers and some like tikkas but you have gone way above the call of duty.
Sell the kimber to Luke or Greg, concentrate on the tikka and be happy And they'll be happy too.................

Randy

Looks like you're a little low and to the right Randy. Maybe with a little help you can fix that problem, or you could just try and trade it in on a Kimber.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rorschach]

Shooting at an outdoor range in the shade, with (mostly) very cool ambient temperatures. All cooling times used throughout these experiments allowed the exterior of the barrel to cool down until it was cool to the touch at the muzzle and back at the chamber.

In the interest of having it 'done', when I get to that point, I'm just going to sell it; Kimber's customer service said that their turnaround time was 8 weeks. I am not willing to let this drag on for at least 2 months, and at most (one would hope), possibly 4 or 5 months. I asked both the distributor and Kimber for a refund if the rifle would not meet Kimber's guarantee, and both refused outright (posted about that earlier in the thread).

I'll buy it for the scrap value in the metal since it obviously broke and should be sent to the chopping block In all seriousness though, if you aren't happy, send it back.

There are a lot of variables in shot groupings and I admire your attempt to group 8 shot strings. However, in my experience, a three shot group is about all the slim barrels in modern ultra-lite rifles can handle in one sitting. Let them cool 3,5,25, 3 hours? who knows. Are you letting it cool in the shade? In the sun? Etc. Is the ambient temperature the same throughout etc. etc.

If one is really curious on how well a rifle groups then find an indoor range to take away atmospherics, shoot one shot, clean and put up the gun. Come back the next day, shoot one shot, repeat. Repeat until you've shot 3, 5, 25, 100 shells or as many as your heart desires....cuz in a hunting environment the first shot is the shot that counts anyway.

 

[Rorschach]

Just added links to all of the range session data on the first post of the thread. Will update it there if any more sessions are added.

Here it is for your convenience:
Kimber 1 (1/27/17)
Kimber 2 (1/29/17)
Kimber 3 (1/31/17)
Tikka 1 (2/4/17)
Tikka 2 (2/6/17)
Tikka 3 (2/8/17)
Kimber 4 (2/9/17)

 

[16Bore]

Epic skullf**ck if I've ever seen one for sure.

 

[luke moffat]

being that there are conceivably people who are fine with a 5moa rifle.

Not sure what this means are you saying that the Kimber is a 5 MOA rifle? If so be sure to list that in your "for sale" ad

I said its not living up to YOUR standard and I agree its not living up to Kimbers standard too.

Also it doesn't appear the Tikka is living up to YOUR standard either of a SUB MOA gun. The Tikka is more accurate it appears certainly.

You claim that you aren't used to shooting such light rifles, yet you say you can print 1.5" groups all day with your 6.5 pound AR. I would say the Tikka is doing the same at the same weight but with an optic. I would hope you'd be able to shoot tighter groups with a scope from a bolt gun than your AR with a red dot. Granted you did take the time to handload for the AR which you refuse to do for the hunting rifles and still not sure why, but to each their own.

All in all both rifles are letting you down.


I don't think you falsely represented anything. Its interesting to see the process, yet I can see how its frustrating for you. Watching this process only confirms my thoughts of being happy with a 1.5 MOA load (even if I have to handled to find it (gasp) ).

I do truly hope you find Nirvana and a true sub MOA load for either gun. Thus far.....you haven't.

 

[luke moffat]

What a load of crap. Let's talk about the elephant sitting in the corner and add so real world valuation. Not only the tikka performed better, it performed better approximately at half the cost of the Kimber.

And I can get better groups from my Ruger American that is half the price of the Tikka....what a load of crap as well.


Yet I will hunt with any of the above. I like the Kimber cause its a full pound or better lighter than the Tikka which is nice and I can live with 1.5 MOA accuracy and even 2 MOA for most of my hunting and not feel hampered in the least.

A Ruger Compact dang light handy little rifle that doesn't break the bank. Yeah it out shoots my Kimber at nearly 4 times the cost, but I can tell you which one is my truck gun and which one I take on fly hunts....

 

[Trial153]

And I can get better groups from my Ruger American that is half the price of the Tikka....what a load of crap as well.


Yet I will hunt with any of the above. I like the Kimber cause its a full pound or better lighter than the Tikka which is nice and I can live with 1.5 MOA accuracy and even 2 MOA for most of my hunting and not feel hampered in the least.

A Ruger Compact dang light handy little rifle that doesn't break the bank. Yeah it out shoots my Kimber at nearly 4 times the cost, but I can tell you which one is my truck gun and which one I take on fly hunts....

And how is any of that germane to the conversation? Your not even in the ball park when you start comparing variables ( rifles ) that aren't a part of the test.
Yea we get it. you want the lighter of the two rifles no mater how the they shoot. You could have ended your search at the website spec sheets.
However that does not negate that the OP very specific objectives. Objectives that despite your insinuations of being trivial should be some what realistic consider both rifles are sold with the pretense that they will perform to 1moa.

 

[JWW]

And I can get better groups from my Ruger American that is half the price of the Tikka....what a load of crap as well.


Yet I will hunt with any of the above. I like the Kimber cause its a full pound or better lighter than the Tikka which is nice and I can live with 1.5 MOA accuracy and even 2 MOA for most of my hunting and not feel hampered in the least.

A Ruger Compact dang light handy little rifle that doesn't break the bank. Yeah it out shoots my Kimber at nearly 4 times the cost, but I can tell you which one is my truck gun and which one I take on fly hunts....

Ruger American 6.5...spooky accurate.

 

[luke moffat]

And how is any of that germane to the conversation? Your not even in the ball park when you start comparing variables ( rifles ) that aren't a part of the test.
Yea we get it. you want the lighter of the two rifles no mater how the they shoot. You could have ended your search at the website spec sheets.
However that does not negate that the OP very specific objectives. Objectives that despite your insinuations of being trivial should be some what realistic consider both rifles are sold with the pretense that they will perform to 1moa.

I am sorry I missed all the multiple sub MOA groups from the Tikka as well. Like I said both rifles failed to meet the OPs standards.

 

[Rorschach]

No sir - the Kimber is indeed not a 5moa rifle, obviously. That was said as part of the larger point that it's Kimber's standard that's being violated, as you rightly observed. Thank you for your concern about what I put in an ad though - I'll make sure to consider your advice.

I did say that I can reliably shoot 1.5" groups with no magnification using my own handloads in my 6.5lb ARs. Earlier in the thread I also said that I was confounded as to how this could be so much easier with those rifles. I'm just estimating, but I do believe the total weight of the loaded AR is more than that of the loaded Tikka. In any case, I don't see the issue here, unless the goal of the statement is to try and cast doubt on the veracity of my claim. If so, say so outright.

I've also explained exactly why I don't wish to develop another load for another rifle, I thought, but in case not - I simply don't wish to go through the load development process, and I'd also simply like to be able to purchase a factory load that shoots well in a given rifle, for simplicity's own sake; I load enough ammunition, I don't wish to add more to that list that I have to do if I want to go shoot.

What is the point of this statement? "All in all both rifles are letting you down." I don't understand why you'd be so concerned about that, if that were indeed even the case. Thank you for the concern though

Bottom line is this: it appears that the Tikka is more accurate with the loads I've tried in it, and with the one particular load (HPH 178gr), it indeed comes very close to doing good enough for me. If the performance demonstrated is consistent/repeatable, it very probably that I can live with that. As for whether or not it's "letting [me] down", as you say - who cares what the answer to that is? The shots are there on paper. The Tikka's 3-shot <1moa guarantee is probably pretty soundly met (and possibly by more than one type of ammunition I fired over several range sessions), whereas, that of the Kimber hangs in some serious doubt.

I'd argue about the assertion that I've not found a sub-moa load for the Tikka if we're talking about what seems to be most people's standard of using a 3-shot group to ascertain this; the Hornady Precision Hunter load qualifies, as very likely does the FGMM 175gr.

Not sure what this means are you saying that the Kimber is a 5 MOA rifle? If so be sure to list that in your "for sale" ad

I said its not living up to YOUR standard and I agree its not living up to Kimbers standard too.

Also it doesn't appear the Tikka is living up to YOUR standard either of a SUB MOA gun. The Tikka is more accurate it appears certainly.

You claim that you aren't used to shooting such light rifles, yet you say you can print 1.5" groups all day with your 6.5 pound AR. I would say the Tikka is doing the same at the same weight but with an optic. I would hope you'd be able to shoot tighter groups with a scope from a bolt gun than your AR with a red dot. Granted you did take the time to handload for the AR which you refuse to do for the hunting rifles and still not sure why, but to each their own.

All in all both rifles are letting you down.


I don't think you falsely represented anything. Its interesting to see the process, yet I can see how its frustrating for you. Watching this process only confirms my thoughts of being happy with a 1.5 MOA load (even if I have to handled to find it (gasp) ).

I do truly hope you find Nirvana and a true sub MOA load for either gun. Thus far.....you haven't.

 

[Rorschach]

Man, you really want this rifle, huh?

I am sorry I missed all the multiple sub MOA groups from the Tikka as well. Like I said both rifles failed to meet the OPs standards.