Kids rifle manifesto

[fwafwow]

As far as the 223 argument I've tried finding penetration testing on gel and seeing 9-11" in a lot of testing on YouTube for the 77gr tmk. I would not be comfortable with that with big game unless I was only shooting CNS or broadside. I know it will work to kill game, but the fact is it's limiting you. Just as a higher recoiling rifle would limit your accuracy. A 6mm ARC penetrates 18" with the 103gr ELDX for comparison.

I don't think the 6.5cm is a minimum, but it's a good hunting round. The 243win/6mmCM is also a great choice and can be loaded through a wide range of speed/recoil and also a great round. My wife(125lbs) shoots one and has zero issues with its recoil.

Have you read (or started to read) the suggested 223 thread?

 

[Formidilosus]

As far as the 223 argument I've tried finding penetration testing on gel and seeing 9-11" in a lot of testing on YouTube for the 77gr tmk.

Negative. In properly calibrated organic gelatin at 2,700-2,800fps impact the 77gr TMK penetrates 14 inches or so on average, including through barriers. 10” of penetration will get to both lungs from any angle in the front half, 14-16” is more than sufficient for any NA deer/elk/bear/moose. Thats contact distance impact speeds at 2,600 fps impact and lower (100 yards and beyond) 16-20” of penetration is expected.

would not be comfortable with that with big game unless I was only shooting CNS or broadside. I know it will work to kill game, but the fact is it's limiting you.

No it’s not. I’m not sure why you won’t read the thread that was linked earlier, so that you stop stating incorrect things. There are hundreds pictures of animal results using that bullet (and others) in that thread- somewhere between 20-30 elk killed that I alone have posted, and shot at every angle and range imaginable.

You gotta watch those dreaded “angles” on elk, and keep it to short ranges with 223’s…


803 yards. 77gr TMK, through “shoulder”, rib, both lungs, rib, through shoulder and caught in exit side muscle-











The elk walked about 10 yards and fell, its head was still flopping so a second shot was placed at a hard quartering away angle with the elk on the ground-




Bullet entered above mid stomach, broke every rib as it angled into the chest, broke the bottom of the spine, and ended up mid chest- about 18-20” of penetration with bone the whole way-

 

[Jbuck]

Have you read (or started to read) the suggested 223 thread?

Yes. I've started it.

Negative. In properly calibrated organic gelatin at 2,700-2,800fps impact the 77gr TMK penetrates 14 inches or so on average, including through barriers. 10” of penetration will get to both lungs from any angle in the front half, 14-16” is more than sufficient for any NA deer/elk/bear/moose. Thats contact distance impact speeds at 2,600 fps impact and lower (100 yards and beyond) 16-20” of penetration is expected.

No it’s not. I’m not sure why you won’t read the thread that was linked earlier, so that you stop stating incorrect things. There are hundreds pictures of animal results using that bullet (and others) in that thread- somewhere between 20-30 elk killed that I alone have posted, and shot at every angle and range imaginable.

You gotta watch those dreaded “angles” on elk, and keep it to short ranges with 223’s…

Forgive me but I'm trying to find corroborating information. I'm not trying to discount you. But I going to try and find impartial data. What I've found on YouTube showed significantly less penetration. I'll keep looking since it's interesting. I am working through that thread, but between work and family I'm bouncing around.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yes. I've started it.

Forgive me but I'm trying to find corroborating information. I'm not trying to discount you. But I going to try and find impartial data. What I've found on YouTube showed significantly less penetration. I'll keep looking since it's interesting. I am working through that thread, but between work and family I'm bouncing around.

What videos on YouTube are showing 9” of penetration from the 77gr TMK in properly calibrated organic gel?

 

[PaulDogs]

A 223 with the barrel marking scratched out and “6mm-223” etched in it…. But, baring that- 6ARC without question. The 6ARC is a much better hunting cartridge in all ways other than subsonic.

How would one etch their own barrel if they wanted to do this?

 

[Marbles]

How would one etch their own barrel if they wanted to do this?

Measuring the bore, or looking at a round is easy. Actually doing that proves guilty knowledge, it could work, or it could just get you in more trouble. In most places, lying to law enforcement is a separate offence that can be charged.

That's my opinion. Do what you want, your risk, your money, your hunting license.

 

[rileybassman]

No. I’m not aware of a single state where they have the authority to ask that. That is ATF’s purview. Beyond that, no one is going to ask, and no one is going to get hung up because a kid is a couple hundred yards away while hunting.





Put them on a trust.

Dumb question, can minors be put on a trust?


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[jaredg]

Minors can not be put on an NFA trust. Wait until they are 18, add and re-notarize. Done!

 

[wyosam]

Measuring the bore, or looking at a round is easy. Actually doing that proves guilty knowledge, it could work, or it could just get you in more trouble. In most places, lying to law enforcement is a separate offence that can be charged.

That's my opinion. Do what you want, your risk, your money, your hunting license.

Definitely lose any chance you had at getting off with a warning, or any sort of leniency.


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[Luke S]

Definitely lose any chance you had at getting off with a warning, or any sort of leniency.


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For what it's worth the recoil difference between our 223 AR and 6.5 Grendal AR is negligible to my shoulder (suppressed). 6mm ARC seems pretty easy to find so there is that option. Any of the above would be better then the 30-30 Marlin I started with.

 

[wyosam]

For what it's worth the recoil difference between our 223 AR and 6.5 Grendal AR is negligible to my shoulder (suppressed). 6mm ARC seems pretty easy to find so there is that option. Any of the above would be better then the 30-30 Marlin I started with.

Yep, lots of options to stay legal. Like one could actually do a 6-45 instead of just restamping the barrel as suggested.


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[Longleaf]

Anyone looking for a kids 22LR check out the keystone 722, chassis gun with AR adjustable stock. Every other kids 22 still has too long LOP for the little ones, i may try to hack up the grip to shorted the trigger reach. Found one for $400 and had my 4yr paint it.

 

[eric1115]

.243 with a 108

6mm ARC with a 108

.223 with a 77

Suppressor brought .243 to near unsuppressed ARC and brought ARC to near unsuppressed .223, I can upload those too if people want to see.

 

[Longleaf]

Suppressor brought .243 to near unsuppressed ARC and brought ARC to near unsuppressed .223, I can upload those too if people want to see.

I’d like to see the suppressed videos please

 

[redchinviking]

Overall there is this idea that you should make it as easy as possible- clip the rifle into a tripod, move the rifle onto the target and let them pull the trigger. Same for when hunting “make sure the have success”. No. I followed that line of thinking for quite a few people when I started- it’s terrible advice. It’s not that you artificially make it harder, it’s that you let them have a challenge to overcome and to be apart of the whole process.
What would happen if your kid got on video game, but you controlled the character, moved it into position for them, aimed at it, and all they did was sit and watch you do that, then reach up and pull the trigger? They would quit and never want to play again.

That’s why kids don’t get lifetime addicted/passionate about hunting anymore- there’s no experience, there is no challenge, there’s nothing but walk behind dad as he carries the rifle, stand there he spots the animal, stand there as he sets the tripod/bipod up, stand there as he ranges, stand there as he dials, stand there as he loads the rifle, stand there as he aims it in, then lay down/stand behind it and pull a trigger- yay what fun. If I did that to any parent that does that for kids- he’d rage quit, yet we are told that is how you should do it.
I’ve seen it done, and did it like that for dozens of kids and women- not one is a hunter as an adult. That isn’t fun.
The reverse is to make them apart of the whole thing- the rifle is fit to them and is light enough that they carry it always- it’s their rifle, they load it, they zero it, they dial it, they build the position, etc. It recoils low enough that they can shoot it without any effects whatsoever for 100 plus rounds a day. Once past the fundamentals of shooting on demand, then practice is treated like a game- timer, targets, race each other, etc. Treat it like play- yes it’s a gun, but it can be safe and fun.
When it comes to scouting, they are involved in every aspect- it’s their hunt, not yours. Go walk around the woods, teach them woodmanship, track, game trails, stalk a squirrel- etc. When the hunt comes, let them have a say where you go and how you hunt- just because valley “A” has more animals, doesn’t mean if they want to go to valley “B” that you shouldn’t- let them hunt and learn. If your plan was to hike then sit and glass, but they want to get up and still hunt an hour in- get up, teach them how to still hunt, or track through snow, etc.
When you see an animal- it’s their animal. It’s not about you, nor is it about how much you want them to be successful- let them setup and make the shot. When the animal is down, it’s their animal- they are primarily responsible for gutting it/quartering it, etc. Of course help, but let them have agency over the whole process.

On that, it’s a serious mistake to take a person and have their first animal and experience be a big game animal- especially a child.
There is a psychological component to killing, but there also is an “what now” component with it. You kill a buck or an elk in the beginning- where do they go from there? They didn’t earn it, they didn’t build up to it- you turned the video game on, went right to the main bad guy at the end of the game, they shot him once and it’s over. Again- yay, so fun. People do much better starting small and working their way up- spot and stalk squirrel hunting is probably the best thing one can do.

Children and woman primarily dislike hunting because it isn’t fun. Make it an adventure from start to finish. Certainly make suggestions when it’s prudent, but if they want to get up and go look over the hill, let them or go with them- let them lead. It’s their hunt not yours, so let them hunt. If they get tired sitting at your bestest, most favorite glassing spot- so what. Get up and start stalking- play army or whatever they want. It’s ok to put the guns down and have a pine cone war. A boring sit on a hill can turn into a wrestling match and make a memory forever. It also can be a boring thing with no challenge and no adventure, where they really don’t care to do it again.


I have introduced dozens of new hunters, women, and children; and seen them introduced in about every way possible. Every single one that was introduced and taught as I wrote above- making them apart of the whole adventure- has stayed with it and became lifetime hunters of their own volition. About 90% that were introduced how the masses say to do it, don’t hunt at all, or only extremely rarely- they are not into it.

I am so glad I just read that. Needed it. Thanks. This thread is a bit of an eye opener for me and I’m in the process of building my daughter her first gun. Approaching things a little differently from here. Such good advice.

 

[30338]

For states with the 6mm requirement, the ARC is of course good. I went 6/223 or 6/45 to take advantage of piles of 223 brass. Its been super easy getting 75-95 grain bullets shooting accurately. Such a fun gun to shoot and totally legal.

 

[OKHunter84]

Negative. In properly calibrated organic gelatin at 2,700-2,800fps impact the 77gr TMK penetrates 14 inches or so on average, including through barriers. 10” of penetration will get to both lungs from any angle in the front half, 14-16” is more than sufficient for any NA deer/elk/bear/moose. Thats contact distance impact speeds at 2,600 fps impact and lower (100 yards and beyond) 16-20” of penetration is expected.







No it’s not. I’m not sure why you won’t read the thread that was linked earlier, so that you stop stating incorrect things. There are hundreds pictures of animal results using that bullet (and others) in that thread- somewhere between 20-30 elk killed that I alone have posted, and shot at every angle and range imaginable.

You gotta watch those dreaded “angles” on elk, and keep it to short ranges with 223’s…


803 yards. 77gr TMK, through “shoulder”, rib, both lungs, rib, through shoulder and caught in exit side muscle-


View attachment 683252

View attachment 683253

View attachment 683254

View attachment 683256


The elk walked about 10 yards and fell, its head was still flopping so a second shot was placed at a hard quartering away angle with the elk on the ground-

View attachment 683259


Bullet entered above mid stomach, broke every rib as it angled into the chest, broke the bottom of the spine, and ended up mid chest- about 18-20” of penetration with bone the whole way-
View attachment 683260

That's pretty impressive damage and a pretty impressive shot at that distance.

I have a couple questions for you, and I'm not trying to be snarky or sarcastic. I ask because you obviously have put in the time to become an expert to even hit anything at 800 yards with a 223.

1) how many hours and rounds down range do you think it would take someone to become proficient at 500 yards with a 223?

2) do you think it would be easier to make that shot with a larger more ballistically superior caliber, (6.5CM, 7PRC, 300PRC, etc)?

I appreciate the information you have contributed. Even if folks don't want to shoot 223 on big game or can't due to regulations, we have to assume everything we know about "target" and hunting bullets has been somewhat deceptive, based off the information you and others have posted.

 

[wyosam]

That's pretty impressive damage and a pretty impressive shot at that distance.

I have a couple questions for you, and I'm not trying to be snarky or sarcastic. I ask because you obviously have put in the time to become an expert to even hit anything at 800 yards with a 223.

1) how many hours and rounds down range do you think it would take someone to become proficient at 500 yards with a 223?

2) do you think it would be easier to make that shot with a larger more ballistically superior caliber, (6.5CM, 7PRC, 300PRC, etc)?

I appreciate the information you have contributed. Even if folks don't want to shoot 223 on big game or can't due to regulations, we have to assume everything we know about "target" and hunting bullets has been somewhat deceptive, based off the information you and others have posted.

500 yard hits. Even on pretty small targets, are not an issue with 223, especially with heavier bullets (though I always had great luck with the 53 v-max, too).


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[Formidilosus]

1) how many hours and rounds down range do you think it would take someone to become proficient at 500 yards with a 223?

It’s not how many rounds to become proficient at 500 yards with a 223; it’s how many rounds to become proficient at 500 yards- with any cartridge.

With a structured and optimized training program for “easy” conductions- around 500 rounds over 3-4 days of solid training, then about 500-700 rounds a year in field practice away from a bench.

2) do you think it would be easier to make that shot with a larger more ballistically superior caliber, (6.5CM, 7PRC, 300PRC, etc)?

Depends. When it comes to success rate on actual animals- no. Not from the large amount of animals and people I have seen. The highest success rate sub 500 yards is either a fast twist 22/250 or 22CM with good bullets, or a fast twist 223 with good bullets.

 

[Dumply]

I have killed and watched killed around 300 big game animals all over the US from the smallest antelope and deer, to bear, elk, and moose with 223’s. From contact to 803 yards.

Why?