Kenai River King Salmon - Circling the Drain

[AKBC]

Seeing a difference in opinion from the locals. Bottomline is non-commercially fished species rarely if ever have a decline in numbers across the board. The fish that generate money get hammered. Saying that Japan owns the fish houses says a lot. They sure eat a lot of fish over there.

I never understood the fishermen not being willing to stop for a couple years to help the fish.

Please don't get me wrong; I support drastic action to save these beautiful fish. My position is that the commercial red salmon fishery in the salt has been massively restricted (and rightly so) to minimize catching kings and it is time for the sport fishing guided and recreational fishery to do the same.

The big money being spent on lobbying is so that the river guides can keep selling trips even on weak run forecasts. I suspect the OP is either a guide or an avid sport fisherman and is advocating for even more restrictions on the commercial guys instead of sport fishing restrictions.

(I do not commercial fish Cook Inlet but do sport fish and personal use fish on the Kenai. I caught one king there 23 years ago.)

 

[WalterH]

Please don't get me wrong; I support drastic action to save these beautiful fish. My position is that the commercial red salmon fishery in the salt has been massively restricted (and rightly so) to minimize catching kings and it is time for the sport fishing guided and recreational fishery to do the same.

The big money being spent on lobbying is so that the river guides can keep selling trips even on weak run forecasts. I suspect the OP is either a guide or an avid sport fisherman and is advocating for even more restrictions on the commercial guys instead of sport fishing restrictions.

(I do not commercial fish Cook Inlet but do sport fish and personal use fish on the Kenai. I caught one king there 23 years ago.)

I am not a guide and have never been one on the Kenai.

I am someone who loves fishing for king salmon, especially Kenai and Kasilof kings, and I want future generations to have the same chance to interact with these special fish.

Are you familiar with the current paired, tiered restrictions in the Kenai management plan? The inriver crowd has been significantly restricted each of the last 4 years including zero fishing for late run kings in 2023.

No need to guess what I am advocating for, it is spelled out in detail in the original post and in the linked Proposal 83. Please read it and you will see that it is more of a restructuring of the timing for liberalizing impacts on kings based on run performance as opposed to more limits on the nets. It does include additional restrictions on the river users in the form of stricter limits on retention and starting the season restricted or closed based on the pre-season forecasts.

 

[AKBC]

It does include additional restrictions on the river users in the form of stricter limits on retention, let the big fish and females go.

Thanks Walter - I share your concern for the plight of these beautiful fish and agree with stricter limits on retention. Does your proposal advocate for stricter limits on catch and release? Catching a big fish multiple times increases her chances of dying before spawning.

 

[WalterH]

Yes in that the proposal calls for starting the season with CNR when the pre-season forecast (PSF) is less then 18,750 fish, and starting the season closed to all fishing if the PSF is less than 15,000 fish.

Then throughout the season the proposal calls for earlier assessment and projections of the total run size, and continued closures and restrictions if the projections are below certain thresholds. All of these things are more restrictive/conservative, than what has been done in the past.

I've attached Proposal 83 for reference. It is also linked along with other information in the first post.

And to be clear, it is not my proposal, but one that I think would do the best job at balancing all user groups interests while protecting the late-run kings.

With regard to big fish getting caught repeatedly, I agree that is less than ideal. There are already several restrictions in place to address that, namely the areas where the late run fish tend to spawn are closed to fishing for kings. The end of the typical king fishing season is also structured the way it is to protect the time when the majority of the spawning occurs. The fishery is currently set up to target newly arriving fish in the lower river.

That having been said, there are a few spots in the lower river that fish spawn. Fall In Hole and Honeymoon in particular later in July. This is where ethics come into play and fisherman really need to self-regulate as it is hard to write and enforceable regulation to address this very specific circumstance. I wish it was as easy as just saying you can't target spawners...

Have a look at the proposal and if you have any other suggestions for how to make things better, I'd love to hear them and please submit to the BOF before Feb 8 as well.

 

[WalterH]

Yes in that the proposal calls for starting the season with CNR when the pre-season forecast (PSF) is less then 18,750 fish, and starting the season closed to all fishing if the PSF is less than 15,000 fish.

Then throughout the season the proposal calls for earlier assessment and projections of the total run size, and continued closures and restrictions if the projections are below certain thresholds. All of these things are more restrictive/conservative, than what has been done in the past.

I've attached Proposal 83 for reference. It is also linked along with other information in the first post.

And to be clear, it is not my proposal, but one that I think would do the best job at balancing all user groups interests while protecting the late-run kings.

With regard to big fish getting caught repeatedly, I agree that is less than ideal. There are already several restrictions in place to address that, namely the areas where the late run fish tend to spawn are closed to fishing for kings. The end of the typical king fishing season is also structured the way it is to protect the time when the majority of the spawning occurs. The fishery is currently set up to target newly arriving fish in the lower river.

That having been said, there are a few spots in the lower river that fish spawn. Fall In Hole and Honeymoon in particular later in July. This is where ethics come into play and fisherman really need to self-regulate as it is hard to write and enforceable regulation to address this very specific circumstance. I wish it was as easy as just saying you can't target spawners...

Have a look at the proposal and if you have any other suggestions for how to make things better, I'd love to hear them and please submit to the BOF before Feb 8 as well.

I think the primary impact that this proposal would have on the comm fish and ESSN folks is that they would be doing the bulk of their sockeye harvesting later in the season. From a sockeye run timing standpoint, that doesn't seem to be problematic seeing as how the sockeye have been coming in hard well into August the last few years. In years where sockeye numbers are down, I would imagine not being able to fish the peak of the run would be sub-optimal.

 

[WRO]

Thanks Walter - I share your concern for the plight of these beautiful fish and agree with stricter limits on retention. Does your proposal advocate for stricter limits on catch and release? Catching a big fish multiple times increases her chances of dying before spawning.

It's been limited for years.

The Kenai is the tragedy of the commons incarnate. That being said, the biggest issue is happening in the ocean and all of the local user groups are pitted against each other instead of taking on the real issue which is trawling in the Gulf, off Kodiak, and in the Bering sea. I've never been involved with a group of less conservation-minded people thank the Cook inlet set netters as a whole. They are a dinosaur, they catch a lot more kings than they let on. The vast majority never make a fish ticket. I worked at beach sites for several years as a kid.

I share the same dislike for them as I do for the Kenai guides.

 

[WRO]

I think the primary impact that this proposal would have on the comm fish and ESSN folks is that they would be doing the bulk of their sockeye harvesting later in the season. From a sockeye run timing standpoint, that doesn't seem to be problematic seeing as how the sockeye have been coming in hard well into August the last few years. In years where sockeye numbers are down, I would imagine not being able to fish the peak of the run would be sub-optimal.

And they're going to hammer the silvers, which are finally making a comeback.

 

[WalterH]

And they're going to hammer the silvers, which are finally making a comeback.

Very good points in each case.

We will never really know the true impact of the ESSN fleet on kings since there is basically no monitoring or enforcement.

Hopefully something can come from the state's buy back initiative. Even just getting the Salamatoff site offline would make a huge difference.

 

[AKBC]

I think the primary impact that this proposal would have on the comm fish and ESSN folks is that they would be doing the bulk of their sockeye harvesting later in the season. From a sockeye run timing standpoint, that doesn't seem to be problematic seeing as how the sockeye have been coming in hard well into August the last few years. In years where sockeye numbers are down, I would imagine not being able to fish the peak of the run would be sub-optimal.

Delaying the sockeye harvest isnt an option as WRO pointed out because of the impact that would have on silvers. The proposal you are pushing appears to be just another reallocation of sockeye conveniently using the low king returns as an excuse. If your proposal advocated for reduced sport pressure on king salmon in freshwater I would buy it but it does not.

Rich M above asked why the fishery couldnt be closed for a few years. The ESSN fishermen have been shut down; I think all in river king fishing should be also. My kids never caught a Kenai king but maybe my grandkids could if the big kings were allowed to spawn. Catch and release on salmon has a much higher mortality than catch and release on fish like largemouth bass.

 

[WRO]

Delaying the sockeye harvest isnt an option as WRO pointed out because of the impact that would have on silvers. The proposal you are pushing appears to be just another reallocation of sockeye conveniently using the low king returns as an excuse. If your proposal advocated for reduced sport pressure on king salmon in freshwater I would buy it but it does not.

Rich M above asked why the fishery couldnt be closed for a few years. The ESSN fishermen have been shut down; I think all in river king fishing should be also. My kids never caught a Kenai king but maybe my grandkids could if the big kings were allowed to spawn. Catch and release on salmon has a much higher mortality than catch and release on fish like largemouth bass.

Studies show sub 5% with the current no bait single hook regulations. There are several studies, one that I was a part of that correlate that.

I am not in support of C and R as every fish is special and needs to hit the gravel.

The problem is in the Ocean, not the rivers. Every stream in AK except some PWS fisheries is in the shitter. Most of those fish spend their adult life in the Bering and gulf and get killed prior to ever making the inlet.

 

[WalterH]

Delaying the sockeye harvest isnt an option as WRO pointed out because of the impact that would have on silvers. The proposal you are pushing appears to be just another reallocation of sockeye conveniently using the low king returns as an excuse. If your proposal advocated for reduced sport pressure on king salmon in freshwater I would buy it but it does not.

Rich M above asked why the fishery couldnt be closed for a few years. The ESSN fishermen have been shut down; I think all in river king fishing should be also. My kids never caught a Kenai king but maybe my grandkids could if the big kings were allowed to spawn. Catch and release on salmon has a much higher mortality than catch and release on fish like largemouth bass.

Another, in my opinion, large problem with delaying sockeye netting is that the bulk of the big kings needed for escapement are showing up later in the season, late July and well into August. Some say this is due to the run timing shifting while others say that it is due to the early part of the run having been decimated over the years.

The proposal absolutely calls for reduced sport pressure on kings in the river by starting closed and only opening if numbers allow it. Far more conservative than the current plan.

Based on the current and proposed plan, when the set nets are shut down, so is all king fishing in the river, just like all of last year.

 

[AKBC]

Studies show sub 5% with the current no bait single hook regulations. There are several studies, one that I was a part of that correlate that.

I am not in support of C and R as every fish is special and needs to hit the gravel.

The problem is in the Ocean, not the rivers. Every stream in AK except some PWS fisheries is in the shitter. Most of those fish spend their adult life in the Bering and gulf and get killed prior to ever making the inlet.

I agree there is a problem in the ocean and there is advocacy/petition to list all king salmon populations that use the Gulf of Alaska, including fish that spawn in the Kenai and Kasilof rivers as endangered (https://www.northernjournal.com/p/washington-conservation-group-proposes).

It isnt cool to blame whales but this study of orca whales is interesting: https://psmag.com/environment/killer-whales-may-be-killing-too-many-salmon

 

[SteelheadBum406]

I heard that some fishing groups are now calling for the Feds to protect Alaska wild Chinook/King salmon under the Endangered Species Act. I admit bias here, but wild Steelhead could use some protection too. The issue of dwindling wild salmon and steelhead stocks is only going to get worse before, if ever, it gets better.

 

[Htm84]

This videos almost 40 years old. Saying the same thing. The runs they’re stressing about would be humongous now.

 

[WRO]

I heard that some fishing groups are now calling for the Feds to protect Alaska wild Chinook/King salmon under the Endangered Species Act. I admit bias here, but wild Steelhead could use some protection too. The issue of dwindling wild salmon and steelhead stocks is only going to get worse before, if ever, it gets better.

It’s the native fish society, f-them. Instead of targeting trawl, they’re targeting hatcheries which is the Spey guys mo locally.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SteelheadBum406]

@WRO, I looked it up and you are correct, it is NFS as well as Wild Fish Conservancy (it won't be long before their sister organizations and corporate sporting cronies join them). Kind of like the Pebble Mine) who are politicking for putting Alaska Chinook/King salmon under the Endangered Species Act. Well, it is going to be interesting to hear from the good people of Alaska that are at gound zero regarding this subject. Btw, don't forget our friends in Canada have dog in this fight, too.

 

[WRO]

@WRO, I looked it up and you are correct, it is NFS as well as Wild Fish Conservancy (it won't be long before their sister organizations and corporate sporting cronies join them). Kind of like the Pebble Mine) who are politicking for putting Alaska Chinook/King salmon under the Endangered Species Act. Well, it is going to be interesting to hear from the good people of Alaska that are at gound zero regarding this subject. Btw, don't forget our friends in Canada have dog in this fight, too.

I'd love to see the take curtailed region-wide to increase populations, but these guys make BHA look like the NRA. They're a bunch of granola munching Prius driving fuks..

 

[bradyhunt]

All this while commercial fisherman are experiencing historically low demand and prices...

Peter Pan's King Cove plant will stay closed this winter as fishing industry turmoil spreads

“It's one of the most difficult days of my life,” said Rodger May, one of the company’s owners and a longtime player in Alaska’s seafood industry.

alaskapublic.org

 

[SteelheadBum406]

I certainly don't have many answers on how to fix all the problems that wild anadromous fish, especially wild Chinook/King salmon and wild Steelhead, are currently facing. It seems that at this point, there are a helluva lot more questions than answers.

Perhaps one very over simplified multipronged solution is to:
1. Place all wild Chinook and Steelhead in US waters under the Endangered Species Act.
2. Close all types of fishing seasons for wild Chinook and Steelhead in all US waters.
3. Whoever the head mother f-er in charge is (Biden??) needs to instruct all stakeholders (businesses, governments, individuals and organizations) to have their representatives report to the "Wild Anadromous Fish Economic and Management Plan Conference" (or whatever) with their problems/concerns and solutions.
4. Then start over by redesigning the entire management and business /economic systems of wild anadromous fish with priority focus on wild Chinook/King salmon and wild Steelhead.
5. The representatives need to know that the fishing seasons for wild Chinook and Steelhead will remain closed until they finalize a new plan.

I know, I know, some total BS, pie in the sky ideas. Something like this would probably take 12 years to implement. (The lawyers need to eat too). It will certainly take some mighty bold leadership to fix this huge problem. So, if not us, who? Where to start? What can I do? When? To what extent do human factors and money matter? Wild anadromous fish? Screw it! Let's go to McDonalds for a fish sandwich.

 

[WalterH]

Sorry, I had a tough time trying to say what my brain was thinking.

I meant, zooplankton and amphipods are also the food source of the smaller fish that chinook feed on, correct. More sockeye released in the ocean eat zooplankton/amphipods which is the same food base the chinook's prey eats = reduced food for chinook.

Does that make more sense?

Fall of the kings

Are Alaska salmon farmers to blame? A news analysis The Seattle-area-based Wild Fish Conservancy has dropped a bomb on the Alaska commercial fishing industry with a petition to the federal governme…

craigmedred.news

Great article by Craig Medred published yesterday that talks about this issue and a whole lot more.