Jumping from inside 400yds to 700yds

[West2East]

I've been doing a lot of work the past few years on practicing out to 700yds. In that time, I have noticed a few things.
1. Inside 400yds, fundamentals of position and trigger press can be enough to get you on target. Even in sitting positions, I feel really confident on a 2 minute target. First round impacts almost every time. Even with wind, it seems like a "bracket" fits inside the 2 minute target so staying on the plate is relatively easy.

2. Over 400yds, things get tricky. Wind, especially in the mountains, is hard to call confidently with a novel condition and make a first round impact. I would say out to 500yds, I am confident with a 2 minute target, in field positions.

I recently bought a tikka 223 and have already shot more in the last 3 weeks than last year and I shot a lot last year. I have 1000 68 gr Frontier ammo on order and I have a few questions for those of you that are comfortable shooting past 500 yds. I have been working on a lot of positional shooting and groups/ drills at 100yds. My average group is probably at best 1.2MOA to 2 MOA.

What is the biggest jump to make to get comfortable past 400yds? Is this just rounds over time on shots over 400? Is it continued groups/drills at 100? I had a thread last year where I was working pretty hard on my wind calls and I "feel" that I can normally get a pretty good wind call (enough for 500ish yd shots on a deer or elk sized target).
Also, I am wondering about ammo. Running the math, if me and my ammo/rifle can only shoot 2ish Min in mountain conditions, how are people diagnosing problems in the field? Are you just shooting at the target and if you hit it, that's good enough? Are you shooting groups to determine what your actual groups are at distance? Thinking more on the WEZ side of the math for hit probability, it's hard to diagnose what is wind vs. group size vs. position.
Any thoughts or information you can provide is helpful. I've read most if not all of the threads that have danced around this subject, but I'd like to hear how people have made the jump with a 1.2-2Min gun from 400 to 700.

Edit to add: I'm probably at 600rds last year and on track for 1600ish this year, so I am out shooting at least once or twice a week and hopefully more once we get more daylight around work hours.

Thanks!

 

[Dave Thomas]

You will need to practice at short and long range. The farther out you go the more any small mistake will make a bigger difference.

 

[Craigo]

If you want to shoot accurate long range. I would start at the fundamental’s of holing your shots at 100 yards. (See attached 3 shot group at 100 yards 7prc.) a lot of factors come into play at longer ranges. I would recommend a sturdy bipod (atlas or MDT) I run both. And a rear squeeze bag like Armageddon. Practice shooting at 100 till your groups are constantly tight. The further out you will need a level on your scope. A 5* cant on your rifle at 1000 yards could place you off 7+ inches. Shooting distance is a technical rabbit hole just depends on how far and deep you want to geaux.

 

[West2East]

Lest this degrades into number of rounds in a group and such I want to clarify my question a bit.
My 1.2 min group is 10 rounds. And I do carry a bipod when I hunt but 60% of my shots have been in spots I haven't been able to use it. So prone off of a pack, Kneeling with backpack up front and tripod on the rear, etc. I'm more asking for "hunting style" shooting and capping at 700ish.

 

[Wrench]

We played games of PIG on bird shit from 7-1k this weekend and it was a blast. We called shots for each other and when we wiped one off we moved on to the next.

Hitting a coffee cup sized spot of poo at a grand is not the easiest in our conditions and makes for better wind calling and gundamentals when it's a race.

 

[Dmoua]

Practice, practice, and practice on small targets (1.5 MOA or smaller). If you’re thinking about killing an animal at 700 yards, start shooting out to 1400 yards. Add stressors such as time limits to your practice and see how well you do. Take good notes and work on your weaknesses. Focusing on the fundamentals to help you spot your misses is critical since most people do not have spotters when they are hunting.

If you shoot enough, you should know your gun well enough to determine if a miss was wind related or not imo.

 

[MT762]

You're on the right track with that case of ammo.

10 shot 1.2 moa groups at 100 is solid. You are also right that within 400-500 you can mostly just "feel" the wind and hold a little in the right direction.

Shooting out long is about reading the wind even better. It's really just that. There is no magic, just repetition.

I would just keep doing what you're doing. You're going to find that with every rifle and load there is a cutoff where you just get sucky at reading the wind. It's usually not a linear drop-off.

But seriously, all this will become obvious.

 

[West2East]

You're on the right track with that case of ammo.

10 shot 1.2 moa groups at 100 is solid. You are also right that within 400-500 you can mostly just "feel" the wind and hold a little in the right direction.

Shooting out long is about reading the wind even better. It's really just that. There is no magic, just repetition.

I would just keep doing what you're doing. You're going to find that with every rifle and load there is a cutoff where you just get sucky at reading the wind. It's usually not a linear drop-off.

But seriously, all this will become obvious.

That's what it feels like. At this point, I don't feel that 10" at 400yds is a "challenge" per-say. Just last week, I took my 223 and put 19/20 on the plate in a 5 mph wind with first round impacts on the first magazine. And at 350, it's basically trying to see what "level" of accuracy I can get. Painting a little circle on the steel and keeping all of the shots inside of it. But once I get out to 500 - 600 it starts feeling like I'm not "good" enough to see if the miss was wind, fundamentals, or just average group size. Especially, where I live, I'm never not shooting with wind. I live in the mountains so I'm constantly figuring out wind, making my hold on the first round.
I've been watching quite a bit of Chris Way and RifleKraft info, which I know has mixed reviews. But I think it has me thinking a different way about wind and "compartmentalizing" all of the factors I think I need to control. A lot of it comes down to just taking the shot.

 

[Macintosh]

Biggest advice is to be clear what you are learning and what you are practicing any time you go to the range. Divide your practice into discrete purposes and treat each one like a scientific experiment ie eliminate variables and change one thing at a time, and only then put everything together.

Example, practicing getting into a stable position is not dependent on range. Practice that easily at short range, and gauge results without having to account for other variables. This is perfect 100 yard practice to isolate your ability to get stable. Doing this at 700+ yards you never quite know what is your stability versus what is wind, etc. Sounds like you have a good head start here.

At the same time, some things require range to see. Dope obviously. Wind. Ranging and manipulating the scope adjustments. Obviously some of this requires a different practice situation. But testing and practicing some of these things at a fundamental level isnt the time to ALSO be practicing positions, as that adds another variable that masks what is actually happening.

Then there is “putting it all together”, ie testing and practicing the entire process. This is testing and gauging success, building muscle memory, etc. BUT its harder to pin an issue down to a soecific cause and isolate what you need to practice.

 

[LaHunter]

That little 223 gets pushed around a lot beyond 400.

 

[Tanner]

One thing that helped me figure shit out at 700+ was shooting bigger targets for a while, so you know exactly where your misses are off of your POA. If you have a tendency to miss wind, if your gun is stringing vertically, if you’re canting the rifle and causing misses, etc.

Once you can start seeing those results Instead of guessing based on dirt splash, hitting smaller targets becomes a lot easier, in my experience.

Tanner

 

[270-300]

Im sure some expert will tell me im wrong for this. I shoot an 18" gong and 8" steel plates in the mountains. I paint them one color, and take group size as a plus. It gives me a relaxed frame of mind realizing an 18" hit at 600 yards will do anything i want to do. Often times, i will end up with very tight groups at this range.

I dont think the old idea of shooting 1 moa at 100 yards means you will shoot 6+" at 600. The reason i think this is because the mind worries about keeping the cross hairs in the dot. When the dot is smaller at longer ranges, it gets easier to see whats centered than keeping cross hairs centered on a big dot at 100. You also notice much more variance in the scope moving when a little nudge jumps several feet. This forces the mind to be more careful. Ive noticed a lot of shooters get sloppy at closer ranges where they know anything will be a hit.

Practicing in wind is a good thing. I recently was shooting a rifle at 600 yards and was amazed to see that particular bullet had 10 feet of wind drift on a 35 mph wind.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Always seemed like around the 700-800yrd mark shit got a lot harder.

That said, a canyon with a lil fog and a bucket of ELD's is a good way to spend the day..


Didnt you already make a thread about this?

 

[greyghostnw]

Shooting farther is honestly reps put in with tools that are capable of.

 

[jeffpg]

When I started shooting at longer distances over 20 years ago, I quickly learned that my accuracy mysteriously fell off from 600-700 yards. Anything inside that was a whole lot easier. Better equipment has helped with that, but life got busier and I don't spend the time shooting like I used to. I'm running out of years, lol.

 

[B Harrison]

Just a rookie observation, but if your rifle and ammunition isn’t inside of 1 MOA at 100 yards easily, I would think 2 MOA at 500+ is a heck of a chore.

I am new to 300 plus target shooting, but don’t own a rifle that will not group at or under an inch with good factory ammunition.

Getting the rifle shooting 5-10 shot groups completely inside of a quarter is something I did before stretching past 300 yards.

On your initial points I agree, mechanics and consistency get you on target at 300-500, I’m currently on pause, because of snow/ ice, but will be adjusting my trigger pulls next time I shoot to try to get more consistent at 485 ( my last plate currently)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[West2East]

Always seemed like around the 700-800yrd mark shit got a lot harder.

That said, a canyon with a lil fog and a bucket of ELD's is a good way to spend the day..


Didnt you already make a thread about this?

I kind of did. I'm trying to see if I'm missing something. I think based on everything I've read on here that I'm not, but you don't know what you don't know. I was using a 6.5 CM but recently got my hands on a 223 so my round count has already gone up for this year.
Like I prefaced in the original post, I have spent a lot of time watching THLR, Chris Way, old ShawnC338 videos. All of their rifles seem to shoot sub MOA. My best group is right at a minute so this does limit my range to begin with. I also need to look at buying bags to shoot off of, I guess. currently I am using just my backpack up front or a bipod, occasionally and my hand on top of my bino harness as a rear rest.
I guess I'm asking if there's something I'm missing at 100- 400, that is going to translate to better more confident groups at 600.

 

[Laramie]

When my friends and I were shooting a lot trying to stretch range in my younger years, we used to shoot as far as we could for practice. Many times we went well beyond 1000 yards on large targets (4'x4' or 4'x8') just to learn. When we finally got comfortable hitting "consistently" on the large targets, moving in to closer yardages became a lot easier. This probably isn't the best method but it really worked for us. Same concept as shooting 80 yards with a bow to make 40 yard shots easy. Ultimately it was just gobs of rounds down range that made us better.