Jimmy John kills potential new state record sheep in NM

[Jethro]

Guided hunting ain't the real thing. Just another way for rich guys to compete with each other, like expensive cars and boats.

A rich guy guided hunt competition? What does that even mean?

 

[CorbLand]

There not, it’s been proven time and time again, every time there’s an increase resident hunters whine like the sky is falling. Most are very unwilling to donate or support sheep in a meaningful way because tags are so impossible to get.


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Dude you should see what happens when they increase nonresident pricing.

 

[Choogiak]

My friend and I took his boy on a sheep hunt last year and he killed a nice ram. The kid had a good time, didn't have to worry about any of the planning or logistics. We found the ram and planned the stalk. We carried the majority of the weight on the pack out. When there were questions about route finding or safety he looked to us.
When you go on a guided hunt guess who you are? The boy. When I was a kid my dad did the same for me. A guided hunt will never give the same experience or satisfaction as the real thing. It's a different experience, spend your money how you want, just don't expect the rest of us to admire it or whatever

 

[WRO]

My friend and I took his boy on a sheep hunt last year and he killed a nice ram. The kid had a good time, didn't have to worry about any of the planning or logistics. We found the ram and planned the stalk. We carried the majority of the weight on the pack out. When there were questions about route finding or safety he looked to us.
When you go on a guided hunt guess who you are? The boy. When I was a kid my dad did the same for me. A guided hunt will never give the same experience or satisfaction as the real thing. It's a different experience, spend your money how you want, just don't expect the rest of us to admire it or whatever

There are several species and locations that you can’t hunt without a guide. I’m hard pressed to look down on a guy who spent 10 days with a pack on his back covering lots of elevation and miles just because he had a guide. I have DIY hunted 6 state and been successful, that being said there are certain tags and opportunities that I will gladly go guided on just because its not realistic to be able to scout and be ready for those opportunities. I have a buddy in the middle of a 10 day DIY hunt who if he’s not successful will do the last 10 days guided, if he kills one on day 15 is it less than?

 

[Choogiak]

I am all for scrapping the must be guided requirement for non residents..send that to the trash heap where it belongs. Regulate non resident harvest with a permit system. If guys want the guided experience and have the money for it, fine.
But let others come up and do it DIY. IMO the large amounts of money involved corrupt the experience. I guess it is a form of hunting, just not the kind I would enjoy or find valuable. I want to be my own guide and succeed or fail on my own merits

 

[HuntHarder]

I love where this thread has went. Now we are guide shaming!! LOL Unreal

 

[Choogiak]

I chimed in because this Jimmy John hunt is the extreme example of why I find commercialized trophy hunting distasteful. This is from someone who has been an avid resident sheep hunter for many years.
I know there are probably forum sponsors who are outfitters and this will likely be shut down soon. Therefore I'll bow out and stop replying in the hopes that doesn't happen. I think it's been an interesting discussion

 

[Kurts86]

I love where this thread has went. Now we are guide shaming!! LOL Unreal

It’s hard to detach some aspects of guiding from governors tags when specific outfitters are handing out dossiers on specific animals before the bidding begins on a specific tag that then drive up the price.

As mentioned these tags often represent the most visible, extreme examples of when you commercialize a public resource. Regardless of how you feel about guides and these tags they are at best a PR nightmare that hunting on the whole doesn’t need.

 

[william schmaltz]

I’m going to get checked for eye cancer after reading this thread.

If AK lifted the ridiculous must be guided rule for governor tags, the amount they could make by raffling those tags would absolutely blow the top off what the same tags are being auctioned for.

 

[cbeard64]

I quoted it before but I'll post it again from WSF CEO Gary Thornton.

“The fact that a handful of individuals stepped up at these levels to put and keep more wild sheep on the mountain for everyone, and one day put more sheep permits into the public draws, is the definition of paying it forward. That’s the backbone of conservation.”

That sounds exactly like someone pissing on me and telling me it's raining.

It don't think it is jealously to know when we are being pandered to and manipulated.

As I posted before, if sportsmen prove unwilling to accept additional fees or to participate in raffles to replace auction revenue, then I guess WSF is proven right and the auctions should continue. Arizona may be a case study for the rest of the western states in this regard.

Nobody’s manipulating you. There are about a dozen or so auction tags for sheep sold each year that generate enough revenue to pr

I quoted it before but I'll post it again from WSF CEO Gary Thornton.

“The fact that a handful of individuals stepped up at these levels to put and keep more wild sheep on the mountain for everyone, and one day put more sheep permits into the public draws, is the definition of paying it forward. That’s the backbone of conservation.”

That sounds exactly like someone pissing on me and telling me it's raining.

It don't think it is jealously to know when we are being pandered to and manipulated.

As I posted before, if sportsmen prove unwilling to accept additional fees or to participate in raffles to replace auction revenue, then I guess WSF is proven right and the auctions should continue. Arizona may be a case study for the rest of the western states in this regard.

The fact is that about a dozen sheep auction tags generate enough conservation revenue going straight to the sheep that they provide many more tags for regular guys that would not otherwise be available.
The fact also is that raffles and other sources do not generate enough revenue to replace those $$$. Those who are directly involved in sheep conservation in AZ know this and begged the Board not to do away with the auction tag. But just the liberals who ignore facts and science to close hunting seasons, the Board did not listen.
IMHO, the only folks trying to manipulate others piss on folks and tell them it’s raining are those who would ignore the straightforward facts and applaud actions that hurt wild sheep - all because of envy and petty jealousies.

 

[LostWapiti]

The main argument I could see for requiring guides on some hunts is safety. They don’t want yahoos sending it in the backcountry and dying or almost dying and needing rescue.

With that said, I would like to see guide requirements go away. I drew an elk tag this year that sells for up to $20k. I thought about a guide for a second and decided against it because I wouldn’t get the same satisfaction from the hunt. I’d rather go home empty handed than hire a guide, even though I have the means to.

Loved the reference calling a guided hunter “the boy”. It’s very true. I also get a lot more satisfaction fishing without a guide even if I catch less fish. I’d have definitely done more AK hunts by now if a guide wasn’t required just because it would be more appealing to me.

 

[LostWapiti]

A rich guy guided hunt competition? What does that even mean?

Pecker waving. “I bought a bigger sheep than you”

 

[CorbLand]

The main argument I could see for requiring guides on some hunts is safety. They don’t want yahoos sending it in the backcountry and dying or almost dying and needing rescue.

It would make far more sense if it was required across the board versus just for hunting.

Want go venture out into that area for a hike? Have at it
Want to venture out into that area to go fishing? You betcha.
Want to venture out there to go photograph animals? Of course.
Want to venture out there to go shoot an animal with a gun/bow? Well, you know, that is pretty dangerous. Better go with this 21 year old kid thats been in the state for less than 72 hours. Its for your safety.

 

[idelkslayer]

Nobody’s manipulating you. There are about a dozen or so auction tags for sheep sold each year that generate enough revenue to pr

The fact is that about a dozen sheep auction tags generate enough conservation revenue going straight to the sheep that they provide many more tags for regular guys that would not otherwise be available.
The fact also is that raffles and other sources do not generate enough revenue to replace those $$$. Those who are directly involved in sheep conservation in AZ know this and begged the Board not to do away with the auction tag. But just the liberals who ignore facts and science to close hunting seasons, the Board did not listen.
IMHO, the only folks trying to manipulate others piss on folks and tell them it’s raining are those who would ignore the straightforward facts and applaud actions that hurt wild sheep - all because of envy and petty jealousies.

Idaho Wild Sheep Foundation founded in 1985
First year Idaho offered an auction tag for Bighorn Sheep - 1988
Idaho Wild Sheep Population 1990 ~5,000; 203 Tags available; Overall drawing odds 1:6
Idaho Wild Sheep Population 2015 ~2,800; 89 Tags available; Overall drawing odds 1:27
Idaho Wild Sheep Population 2023 ~3,400; 96 Tags available; Overall drawing odds 1:44

WSF is manipulating hunters by constantly beating the drum that we need the auction tags so they can put sheep on the mountain for the rest of us. I don't think their claim stands up to scrutiny, at least in Idaho. Instead, they perpetuate the auction system which guarantees their wealthiest members a tag while the opportunity continues to shrink for everyone else. Thankfully Idaho only has one auction tag. I'm not at all surprised that such people would advocate against what Arizona did.

 

[Brooks]

Some people won’t be happy until Game and Fish issues a tag to anyone who wants one. Kind of like …no losers, everyone comes in first place and gets a trophy.
Congrats JJ on a great ram and thank you for supporting wild sheep !

 

[LostWapiti]

It would make far more sense if it was required across the board versus just for hunting.

Want go venture out into that area for a hike? Have at it
Want to venture out into that area to go fishing? You betcha.
Want to venture out there to go photograph animals? Of course.
Want to venture out there to go shoot an animal with a gun/bow? Well, you know, that is pretty dangerous. Better go with this 21 year old kid thats been in the state for less than 72 hours. Its for your safety.

Hilarious comparison, most people already probably know but Wyoming does the same crap with Designated Wilderness areas.

 

[schmalzy]

It would make far more sense if it was required across the board versus just for hunting.

Want go venture out into that area for a hike? Have at it
Want to venture out into that area to go fishing? You betcha.
Want to venture out there to go photograph animals? Of course.
Want to venture out there to go shoot an animal with a gun/bow? Well, you know, that is pretty dangerous. Better go with this 21 year old kid thats been in the state for less than 72 hours. Its for your safety.

It’s off topic but i dream about a world where AK would remove the guide requirement, charge 10k for a non resident tag, make the sub legal harvest penalty very stiff, and have some sort of orientation/vetting to make sure everyone knows that they’re responsible for their own safety.

The main “issue” I have with the guide requirement for non residents is when the guide isn’t an Alaskan resident.


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[LostWapiti]

I’m going to get checked for eye cancer after reading this thread.

If AK lifted the ridiculous must be guided rule for governor tags, the amount they could make by raffling those tags would absolutely blow the top off what the same tags are being auctioned for.

Alaska could easily sell nonresident non-guided dall sheep tags for $10k and most people would be happy about it.

How much money would that raise annually?

 

[CorbLand]

Hilarious comparison, most people already probably know but Wyoming does the same crap with Designated Wilderness areas.

That comparison was largely making fun of that law in Wyoming.

 

[OMB]

Idaho Wild Sheep Foundation founded in 1985
First year Idaho offered an auction tag for Bighorn Sheep - 1988
Idaho Wild Sheep Population 1990 ~5,000; 203 Tags available; Overall drawing odds 1:6
Idaho Wild Sheep Population 2015 ~2,800; 89 Tags available; Overall drawing odds 1:27
Idaho Wild Sheep Population 2023 ~3,400; 96 Tags available; Overall drawing odds 1:44

WSF is manipulating hunters by constantly beating the drum that we need the auction tags so they can put sheep on the mountain for the rest of us. I don't think their claim stands up to scrutiny, at least in Idaho. Instead, they perpetuate the auction system which guarantees their wealthiest members a tag while the opportunity continues to shrink for everyone else. Thankfully Idaho only has one auction tag. I'm not at all surprised that such people would advocate against what Arizona did.

Bingo. And this is the same story across most states with sheep with exception of some areas in 1 or 2 states.

I'm not against auction tags per se, but the people that feel the need to jeer and crow about how many sheep are on the mountain because of the same 10-15 guys buying auction tags is beyond annoying. Glad there's a lot of money going to the resource, but 30+ years of data is showing that there are in fact fewer tags in the public pool, not more. Sometimes drastically fewer.