Is Utah teeth aging accurate ?

[HunterGatherer]

Utah requires elk hunters to send in teeth for aging so that they can determine age of the animals harvested to see if they are hitting management objectives for age. I sent my bull teeth off a few weeks ago.

4 years ago, I assisted some friends on a Utah elk hunters and they both killed nice bulls - one 320 and the other almost 340. They were clearly not the same age, based on teeth wear, but when the teeth aging results came back UDFW said they were both 6.5 yr old bulls, which maybe coincidentally is their management objective for that unit.

So the question is, do you think they really are reporting accurate aging on these tooth samples ? What have been your experiences with this ?

 

[Rogue Bay]

I know your question is specific to Utah and I have no experience with that but my hunting group of family and friends has sent teeth from all of our harvests here in Oregon for the last 6 years or so and one thing I’ve come to terms with is that tooth wear is not as good of an age indicator as I always believed. We’ve had a number of animals that had significantly different tooth wear patterns that were the same age.

For example, last year my wife and I both killed 5.5 year old blacktail bucks. The teeth on hers were as worn as I’ve seen on a deer but everything else about him indicated a buck in his prime. My buck was smaller but obviously mature and his teeth weren’t nearly as worn. I’ve seen this same variation several times. I also killed a 320+ bull that was 6.5 but had more tooth wear than my friend’s 355 bull. I believe feeding habits and genetics play a significant role in tooth wear, so I wouldn’t rule their aging results out based on that.

 

[realunlucky]

I know your question is specific to Utah and I have no experience with that but my hunting group of family and friends has sent teeth from all of our harvests here in Oregon for the last 6 years or so and one thing I’ve come to terms with is that tooth wear is not as good of an age indicator as I always believed. We’ve had a number of animals that had significantly different tooth wear patterns that were the same age.

For example, last year my wife and I both killed 5.5 year old blacktail bucks. The teeth on hers were as worn as I’ve seen on a deer but everything else about him indicated a buck in his prime. My buck was smaller but obviously mature and his teeth weren’t nearly as worn. I’ve seen this same variation several times. I also killed a 320+ bull that was 6.5 but had more tooth wear than my friend’s 355 bull. I believe feeding habits and genetics play a significant role in tooth wear, so I wouldn’t rule their aging results out based on that.

They can cut the tooth and get a very accurate age

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[realunlucky]

Utah requires elk hunters to send in teeth for aging so that they can determine age of the animals harvested to see if they are hitting management objectives for age. I sent my bull teeth off a few weeks ago.

4 years ago, I assisted some friends on a Utah elk hunters and they both killed nice bulls - one 320 and the other almost 340. They were clearly not the same age, based on teeth wear, but when the teeth aging results came back UDFW said they were both 6.5 yr old bulls, which maybe coincidentally is their management objective for that unit.

So the question is, do you think they really are reporting accurate aging on these tooth samples ? What have been your experiences with this ?

I believe in the past there was some concern over the actual aging of the elk teeth. If the percentage of bulls come in under age the number of permits can be adjusted.

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[Pacific_Fork]

You honestly think every animals teeth would age the same way, eating the same diet, carry the same genetics….or have you not thought this through all the way? Of course bulls could easily be the same age and not have identical teeth wear lol!

 

[Rogue Bay]

They can cut the tooth and get a very accurate age

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Absolutely. Way more reliable than guessing by the dentine ridges of the molars.

 

[Erict]

Read THIS Utah DWR article, which explains the process well. I would expect a high degree of accuracy.


Elk teeth are sent to the laboratory where a very thin cross section of the root is scanned to determine the age of the animal. The photo on the right shows the dark "winter rings" present in the tooth of an 11 year-old elk. Slide photo credit: Matson's Lab


.

 

[HunterGatherer]

You honestly think every animals teeth would age the same way, eating the same diet, carry the same genetics….or have you not thought this through all the way? Of course bulls could easily be the same age and not have identical teeth wear lol!

There were other factors than just teeth that led us to believe the bulls were different ages. Did you post this after a couple of drinks on a Saturday night or is this how you are all the time ? lol

 

[HunterGatherer]

Read THIS Utah DWR article, which explains the process well. I would expect a high degree of accuracy.


View attachment 952277View attachment 952276
Elk teeth are sent to the laboratory where a very thin cross section of the root is scanned to determine the age of the animal. The photo on the right shows the dark "winter rings" present in the tooth of an 11 year-old elk. Slide photo credit: Matson's Lab

I know how they do it. My question was more related to if they are fudging the numbers to fit their management objectives …

 

[5MilesBack]

I know how they do it. My question was more related to if they are fudging the numbers to fit their management objectives …

If they are intentionally fudging the numbers, then in reality they have no management objective or program.

 

[HunterGatherer]

If they are intentionally fudging the numbers, then in reality they have no management objective or program.

Scientists fudge data all the time, often depending on where their funding is coming from. There’s plenty of examples of this.
Like Realunlucky said, if the teeth aging results fall below management objectives for age class for that unit, they would need to sell less tags, taking $ out of their revenue stream. The motive is there - just wondering if anyone else got suspicious aging results from their teeth…

 

[dirtshooter]

One person once told me you could judge maturity by the ivories in the elk. Not sure how true that is.

 

[5MilesBack]

Scientists fudge data all the time, often depending on where their funding is coming from. There’s plenty of examples of this.

And like I said, if they're doing that then in reality they don't have a program. When it becomes all about money or another motivator besides solid management, then it ceases to exist. Just look at the motivation of "green programs".

 

[Pacific_Fork]

There were other factors than just teeth that led us to believe the bulls were different ages. Did you post this after a couple of drinks on a Saturday night or is this how you are all the time ? lol

Touché!

I get easily annoyed over the years listening to hunters pretend they have a degree in biology or know more than the science. Look I’m a certified conspiracy theorist especially when it comes to fudging with science in other sectors to fit narratives. But this ain’t it. Like said above if they intentionally lie about ages then there would be no management objective, it wouldn’t work.

Tooth aging is also less than 100% accurate.

 

[HunterGatherer]

Touché!

I get easily annoyed over the years listening to hunters pretend they have a degree in biology or know more than the science. Look I’m a certified conspiracy theorist especially when it comes to fudging with science in other sectors to fit narratives. But this ain’t it. Like said above if they intentionally lie about ages then there would be no management objective, it wouldn’t work.

Tooth aging is also less than 100% accurate.

All good man. Anyone who has spent some time on the forums gets easily annoyed after awhile . And I am definitely prone to believing in conspiracies after what we’ve lived through for the last 10 years or so.