Is There Ever a Time to Hunt with Magnum Calibers?

[Wyobohunter]

All else is rarely equal though, and more may not be needed. If you hit a fly with a hammer, it does more damage than a flyswatter. Does that make it a better fly killing tool?

You know this intuitively (assuming you don't hunt deer with a .375 CheyTac).

I understand. Though people do hunt very small deer with very big rifles on Kodiak… Whole nuther reason. The bigger/better penetrating bullet isn’t free, I also get that. In my case (.338 RUM) the penalty is a heavy and very loud rifle. It doesn’t kick much, but I’ll be damned if I’d want to shoot it without hearing protection. 90% of the time I grab my ‘06, not because of any imagined ballistic superiority, because it is nice to carry. It’s pretty damn hard kicking, though I started shooting nasty guns at a pretty young age, I might be a little masochistic.

 

[eric1115]

I understand. Though people do hunt very small deer with very big rifles on Kodiak… Whole nuther reason. The bigger/better penetrating bullet isn’t free, I also get that. In my case (.338 RUM) the penalty is a heavy and very loud rifle. It doesn’t kick much, but I’ll be damned if I’d want to shoot it without hearing protection.

Haha, you're way closer than I thought! Everyone has that point though, where the benefit of "more" damage is outweighed by the cost of getting it (be it meat damage, rifle weight/size, recoil/shootability, ammo cost, etc).

 

[Wyobohunter]

Haha, you're way closer than I thought! Everyone has that point though, where the benefit of "more" damage is outweighed by the cost of getting it (be it meat damage, rifle weight/size, recoil/shootability, ammo cost, etc).

Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to have a 6.8 Western (or similar), I’d trade the ‘06 straight across for one if it came with all of the reloading components and tools (and was as accurate, and lightweight). That ain’t happening, so I work with what I have, which is everything I need to cover what I do, and there are other priorities. I draw the line at something close to that (.270) caliber, for me, for elk. I could legally hunt elk with my .243 Win, but I won’t. That’s for deer & antelope, which I rarely hunt.

I backpack hunt solo, which puts variables in play that a group doesn’t have to consider, at least not as seriously.

 

[hereinaz]

I really appreciate the insight here—this perspective helps clarify where the big calibers fit in. It makes a lot of sense that beyond 1,000–1,100 yards, it’s less about wind drift or terminal ballistics and more about splash and trace to ensure impacts are visible and corrections can be made.

I’m curious, though—when you’re running those large 338s with 300-grain Bergers or 285 ELD-Ms, are you typically shooting them out of big, heavy rifles to mitigate recoil? It seems like that would be critical to staying on target and making follow-ups manageable. Or can you manage a lighter setup at those ranges, provided you’ve got a good spotting setup?

It also sounds like this is a very specific use case that requires a particular skill set, nearly perfect conditions, and a large target like elk or bigger to make it practical. It's interesting how specialized the role of these "magnum" cartridges becomes when framed in that context. Thanks again for sharing your approach—it sounds like we were on the right track that heavy weight heavy for calibre bullets are for way out there; further than most people should attempt at game.

Yes, far out requires high BC bullets and adequate velocity. That is the case and always has been.

The only point of debate in my mind is what distance does it becomes reasonable to jump from say my future .22 creed to my present 25SST or 7 SS? Is that filled by the 6 UM.

The massive jump from 6UM to .338 defies some of the rationale as the single solution it is made out to be. And, it is not necessary. It works for Form and his skills/situation.

Credit to Form, I draw the line at 1000ish so would never have a need to go .338. I can’t comprehend the skill he has.

I don’t have much disagreement with Form or others. Except, I have never been one to see such bright lines, extremes, and absolutes. Everything is a cost benefit analysis.

I will try to shoot a 6 UM soon and maybe it will make me a believer. I shot thousands of the 115 DTACs out of a 6XC and 6 creed early on. Shooting my 7 mag was easier to see and shoot past 700 back then. My 25 SST is easier to shoot, and see, but I can’t discern whether it is because of the bullet size or my improvement over the years.

Clearly, Form’s skills allow him to shoot the 6UM to 1100. How much of it applies to me and others without skill, time, and money to shoot as much?

What if I don’t and can’t get his skills to see trace/splash?

What if I can balance a little more recoil of a 7mm and then can see the 180 VLD better?

Ask yourself, what about the jump all the way to .338 at 1100 yards? There is no “bright line” at 1100 that is so easy to draw, and so extreme.

Ask yourself, can’t a guy rationally and reasonably choose to use a 6.5 mm 147/156, 7mm 180, or 225 300 for the same reasons to hunt between 700-1000: to improve visibility, splash, etc.?

Have you ever tried to watch trace of a 115 going 3200 fps, let alone a 6UM? Compare that to a 180 VLD going 3050, the 180 is a bus. Slower is better to catch trace earlier.

The same reasons Form jumps to a .338 at 1100 are the same reasons that I am happy to jump to a 180 VLD at 700.

I can get enough range time to control recoil and have confidence in my ability to shoot the 7mm. A suppressed 180 VLD isn’t that hard to shoot well, and spotting trace of the slower bullet is that much easier, including splash.

There are real physical limitations and practicality of loading the ultra fast cartridges like the 6 UM for precision. It shows in choices for competitions.

So far, I have not seen enough of the 6UM. But, it contradicts the practical reasons that 1000 yard bench rest goes to .284, because of the level of repeatability and precision.

There are many examples where a more reliable cartridge that is not hot rodded is more accurate and precise over time. Even PRS with their 6mm, they load slow so they can see trace easier in addition to reducing recoil. The 6UM is much harder to see trace because of the velocity.

Look at all the winning “default” cartridges in benchrest, PRS, F-Class, etc. The ratio of powder to bullet matters. Short and fat 6BR, 6 Dasher/BRA, 284, 7 SAUM.

The 6 UM benefits from the short fat, but when it comes to ultra fast cartridges, there are historical limitations that I don’t think it has overcome.

I thought it was partly wind drift, but I was wrong. Doesn’t change the fact that 1000 service rifles are dominated by 308, even though the .223 have faster and higher BC bullets.

 

[roadrunner]

It drifts not because the wind blows it sideways as if we blew on a cotton ball. A right twist bullet actually drifts at an angle up and to the left in a left to right wind. It drifts down at an angle to the right in a right to left wind. That’s because of the way gyroscopic stability works.

Yes. It's called the Magnus Effect.

Inertia is still at play whether it's being pushed sideways or from lift.

 

[roadrunner]

Not anywhere in the wind drift formula. I call this out each time I see it because it won't die. A lot of people have no clue at all what the factors in wind drift are.

I think you need to understand what inertia is...

 

[hereinaz]

Internet hunting is operating normally. Carry on. *chuckle*

Yes, hunts and holidays are over so some of us do other things we might enjoy, like talking about a very niche topic.

For the record, one way to fill tags in AZ is to glass and kill as far as you can reliably shoot, or you eat tags and always watch BOAL walk away. But, when I hunted in Tennessee, I still hunted timber.

So many appear to be commenting on things that they don't understand or just feel differently about. I don't care how any of you feel about it. Please add something valuable or move on.

What is the emotional draw to make comments that have nothing to do with the topic? I don’t go on threads about timber hunting and take cheap shots about how western it gets and all the gut shots taken by idiots on running game. For every long range hero, you've got hundreds of gut shooters.

 

[hereinaz]

I think you need to understand what inertia is...

I had to go back and read. I was wrong to say bullet weight mattered. Bottom line is that BC and velocity determine drop. There are other confounding factors that make heavier bullets with same BC better the longer the distances extend. As far as I can tell, inertia is not one of them.

 

[TaperPin]

Yes, hunts and holidays are over so some of us do other things we might enjoy, like talking about a very niche topic.

For the record, one way to fill tags in AZ is to glass and kill as far as you can reliably shoot, or you eat tags and always watch BOAL walk away. But, when I hunted in Tennessee, I still hunted timber.

So many appear to be commenting on things that they don't understand or just feel differently about. I don't care how any of you feel about it. Please add something valuable or move on.

What is the emotional draw to make comments that have nothing to do with the topic? I don’t go on threads about timber hunting and take cheap shots about how western it gets and all the gut shots taken by idiots on running game. For every long range hero, you've got hundreds of gut shooters.

The post is when to use a magnum, and typical hunting is a combination of long range and short range. Focus only on the long range if you want, but it’s short sighted in a broad discussion in the firearms section.

I don’t feel like timber hunting is a rarity at all. We normally hunt elk in pretty broken open country, but any given day we may hunt benches or draws during the day and be back on top for evening. We may purposely hit a single bench on the way into an area, that’s just good technique to match the conditions.

If you don’t enjoy reading something, simply don’t read it.

 

[Scoutfan]

Genuinely curious about what situations you have found a smaller caliber set up more versatile than a larger one. I have had more of the exact opposite situations.

 

[HandgunHTR]

After reading all of the talk of super fast .224 bullets and long range shooting, I wonder how many critters are wounded every year. No one brags about that.

Please remember, you are doing this for fun. To the animals, it’s life. Don’t risk causing unnecessary suffering to prop up your ego. I lost a deer to a poorly placed arrow once, I didn’t feel great about the shot but loosed anyway; it was more than twenty years ago, it still bothers me.

Why is it that you automatically assume that there are a bunch of animals out there getting wounded by guys shooting "small caliber" bullets? I have been involved with many more rodeos with guys shooting "magnums" than I have with guys who shoot "small cartridges". It very well could be that the "small cartridge" guys tend to practice a lot more than the "magnum" guys. Or it could be the "magnum" guys think they can just shoot animals anywhere and the animal will just magically fall down dead.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Why is it that you automatically assume that there are a bunch of animals out there getting wounded by guys shooting "small caliber" bullets? I have been involved with many more rodeos with guys shooting "magnums" than I have with guys who shoot "small cartridges". It very well could be that the "small cartridge" guys tend to practice a lot more than the "magnum" guys. Or it could be the "magnum" guys think they can just shoot animals anywhere and the animal will just magically fall down dead.

I didn’t assume, I wondered. The post was more about range than cartridge.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I didn’t assume, I wondered. The post was more about range than cartridge.

Everybody that I know that uses small cartridges know their muzzle velocities and ballistics, and limit their shot distances to their velocity limit at impact, myself included. I don't take shots that outside my velocity window, just like I don't take an ass or head shot on an animal because "that was what was presented". I have more discipline than that.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Everybody that I know that uses small cartridges know their muzzle velocities and ballistics, and limit their shot distances to their velocity limit at impact, myself included. I don't take shots that outside my velocity window, just like I don't take an ass or head shot on an animal because "that was what was presented". I have more discipline than that.

Same here, pretty much. I don’t stretch to anywhere near minimum velocity, my personal max range stops way short of that because of the increased negative impact every single variable has at long range. What we can do at the rifle range is exponentially harder after climbing at altitude, and I don’t feel too terrible wounding paper and steel.

 

[JPW13]

Once an 88 gr eldm hits the animal, do you think it will perform much differently than a 90 gr. 6mm? I’m trying to wrap my head around why the first 88 gr bullet is magically deadly while the second, which has been around for well over 50 years in every conceivable jacket thickness, has worked, but not as well as larger setups. I think it’s trendy.

Out where extra high bc bullets begin to shine, most rifles can barely group well enough to stay within the kill zone, let alone field accuracy and wind call errors. All the 30 round zero groups of 1-1/2 MOA mean on a 500 yard shot there’s only a 1-1/4” ring around the kill zone or shots start dropping into less lethal areas - about a 1 mph wind call error under ideal conditions, let along quick shots. I guess it’s fun to think about, but there’s a lot of selective reporting on the real world failures in the field past 500.

I’ve had 50 gr of a 100 gr. 6mm bullet fragment while the other half continued out the far side of the rib cage. The cow went 300-400 yards. Not very impressed with that.

Like many guys in my social circle, we don’t feel the need to change our primary hunting rifles, to compare notes on if our Partitions or Accubonds will bounce off anything, or wonder if a 7 or 300 mag is an effective killer. Still, we’re gun nuts and trying new stuff is a normal part of life - we kill meat animals with everything from muzzleloaders to pistols to small caliber rifles - it seems this year everyone, including myself, has a 22 Creed and we’ll be killing things with it soon enough. I don’t expect a 22 bullet to be magically as good as a 6mm or 25 caliber, but it should be obvious if it is. I wouldn’t say any 6mm combination we’ve seen is better than a good 25 cal combination, and 25 cal rifles don’t blow the doors off a 270 or 7 mag. Hunting and shooting has obvious results when shot side by side with other combinations - time will tell. I can see heavy 22’s taking the traditional place of the standard weight 243, and heavy 6mm’s taking the place of standard weight 25 cal setups, but it’s not magic. Most shooters can’t shoot well enough to extend the range of the traditional cartridges, but it’s fun to play with. We think of heavy bullets in the creed as better long range coyote guns, like a fast twist 22-250 has been since heavy bullets first came out, and it does have less recoil for kids and those in the family that don’t shoot much.

Great points, and I completely agree—there’s no magic bullet, and results come from practice and the skills developed through it. No matter how advanced the bullet or caliber, nothing replaces consistent time behind the rifle. That said, easier-to-shoot setups, like a fast-twist .22 or a heavy-for-caliber 6mm, can make the process more forgiving and help shooters build confidence faster.

On the comparison of the 88 ELD-M to a 90-grain 6mm, from what I understand the key difference is the length. The 88 is longer, and I’ve heard it likened to sharpening a short vs long pencil—the extra length means more material to drive through the target, potentially improving penetration. This doesn’t make it magic, but it could explain why it performs better than a similar weight larger caliber bullet in certain real-world scenarios.

At the end of the day, new cartridges and bullets are fun to experiment with, and time will tell where they fit in the hunting world. Looking forward to hearing how your 22 Creed performs this season—sounds like you’ve got a great mix of experience and expertise driving your results.

 

[JPW13]

Genuinely curious about what situations you have found a smaller caliber set up more versatile than a larger one. I have had more of the exact opposite situations.

I shared my own experience trying out small calibers this year and had the opportunity to take a deer very close range that resulted in DRT (btw that was off my knee and I was able to watch the deer drop through my scope) as well as a deer at longer range 500M (550yards) that was also DRT through both shoulders with an exit. That seems quite versatile? It's also a tiny sample size, but that's why I appreciate this forum and all the shared experiences to get a better idea of what has been working for people.

 

[2Stamp]

I don't own a magnum and have no desire to. I'll keep my old school 30-06 (sentimental reasons) and my 280ai (because it's f#_&ing cool and I shoot it really well) if I "need" something bigger, because of reasons. After going through the mental gymnastics over small calibers and match bullets then past couple years, any of my short actions will cover me for what I need.

 

[roadrunner]

I had to go back and read. I was wrong to say bullet weight mattered. Bottom line is that BC and velocity determine drop. There are other confounding factors that make heavier bullets with same BC better the longer the distances extend. As far as I can tell, inertia is not one of them.

Inertia is simply that an object either sitting still or moving in a line wants to continue to do that until something makes it move or deviate. Making it move or deviate requires work, aka energy, involving a force (gravity with mass is free fall and cross wind is another).

 

[roadrunner]

Everybody that I know that uses small cartridges know their muzzle velocities and ballistics, and limit their shot distances to their velocity limit at impact, myself included. I don't take shots that outside my velocity window, just like I don't take an ass or head shot on an animal because "that was what was presented". I have more discipline than that.

I know my muzzy velocity and ballistics from 100 yds to 600 yds while shooting my magnums and everything in between.

I will not shoot a 150 gr from my .270 beyond 500 yds, numerically and from witness on the animal(s) shot at that distance.

600 yds is my cap for my 7mm WSM shooting a 140 gr with muzzy v of 3,200 +/- 15 fps.

400 yds is max for my .25-06 using a 110 gr.

These maximums are on adult elk size animals, not little deer and prongy's.

 

[Scoutfan]

I had to go back and read. I was wrong to say bullet weight mattered. Bottom line is that BC and velocity determine drop. There are other confounding factors that make heavier bullets with same BC better the longer the distances extend. As far as I can tell, inertia is not one of them.

Maybe I am mistaken but I thought that bullets with the same bc and driven the same speed that heavier bullet had a small edge in wind drift? Also curious if you have ever had any issues with thermal movements?
You definitely seem to be more educated on the fine details than I am. As mentioned on another thread I still have limited personal experience with mid bore high bc bullets.
It was about 5 years ago that I decided they didn't offer enough benefits for my personal use to keep experimenting with. I chose to focus on maximizing my personal abilities with what has given me the most consistent performance that worked for my situations.Have things improved that much since then?