Is a 6.5 PRC enough? Do I need a 7mm?

[Formidilosus]

One thing they do have is infinitely more experience on animal kills than 95% of the people who post on Rokslide.

And what does that mean? Seeing a bunch of animals get shot up, some run, some drop, some walk, some never found, some shot 6,7,8 times, etc., and then getting the animal cut up and back to camp as fast as possible doesn’t lend itself to factual understanding of terminal ballistics, or how bullets destroy tissue. I have never seen or heard of a guide logging details of shots, animal reaction, distance moved after impact, impact velocity, type of bullet, nor do a necropsy of the wound channels, or experiment with a wide variety of projectiles and calibers.

I’m sure there is a guide somewhere that understands terminal ballistics, but I’ve not met one, nor know anyone that has. But, I don’t expect hunting guides to know anything more about detailed terminal ballistics than I do my tour guide to know about detailed engine mechanics of the vehicle we are in.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Guides are not ballisticians. Many are good and know rifles and bullets, many don't. One thing they do have is infinitely more experience on animal kills than 95% of the people who post on Rokslide.

I have a massive advantage as far as time driving cars compared to a young mechanic. Who knows more about how cars work though?

 

[Quandary]

And what does that mean? Seeing a bunch of animals get shot up, some run, some drop, some walk, some never found, some shot 6,7,8 times, etc., and then getting the animal cut up and back to camp as fast as possible doesn’t lend itself to factual understanding of terminal ballistics, or how bullets destroy tissue. I have never seen or heard of a guide logging details of shots, animal reaction, distance moved after impact, impact velocity, type of bullet, nor do a necropsy of the wound channels, or experiment with a wide variety of projectiles and calibers.

I’m sure there is a guide somewhere that understands terminal ballistics, but I’ve not met one, nor know anyone that has. But, I don’t expect hunting guides to know anything more about detailed terminal ballistics than I do my tour guide to know about detailed engine mechanics of the vehicle we are in.

It means that experienced professional guides have vastly more experience in killing animals than 95% of Rokslide posters, including me. As I said guides are not ballisticians, but they do see a many animals shot, with many different calibers and many different bullets, by many different shooters good, bad or indifferent. Consequently they have significant anecdotal experience as to what kills and what leads to rodeo's. They see bad shooters, bad bullets, bad calibers for the circumstances and the flip side. This experience lends them a certain amount of credibility in their view of good killing. Now that said are there bad guides, guides that don't know crap, guides that are inexprienced, absolutely. However I don't think their opinion can simply be dismissed as worthless and is certainly more well found in experience than 95% who post in forums. Does the typical guide have your experience and knowledge in these matters no, but they do have most than most.

 

[Quandary]

I have a massive advantage as far as time driving cars compared to a young mechanic. Who knows more about how cars work though?

You need to work on your analogies a bit. Are you equating a typical hunter with the "young mechanic"? If so the typical hunter doesn't know jack about much of anything.

 

[Fujicon]

Absolutely love the 6.5 PRC. Excellent cartridge, versatile and accurate as can be. But do I use it for elk? Nope. 30 or above for me. Physics will tell you that a 22LR is "enough" with superior shot placement, but real-world experience tells you the animal deserves 30 or above.

 

[JohnJohnson]

As I said guides are not ballisticians, but they do see a many animals shot, with many different calibers and many different bullets, by many different shooters good, bad or indifferent. Consequently they have significant anecdotal experience as to what kills and what leads to rodeo's.

If they don't have an interest in interpreting those experiences, you'll get the lazy stuff that 99% of guides say. My anecdotal experience on having to hear about what X guide recommends for Y game about 1,000 times is I don't think I've heard a north american guide base their recommendations on bullets, only cartridges. Which gives me the impression they don't really know what they're talking about.

They see bad shooters, bad bullets, bad calibers for the circumstances and the flip side.

If they're seeing a lot of bad shooters (which they definitely are), why do their recommendations have relevance to people who don't suck at shooting? And is one of the reasons their shooters suck because those people are using big magnums that they can't shoot well?

You need to work on your anecdotes a bit. Are you equating a typical hunter with the "young mechanic"? If so the typical hunter doesn't know jack about much of anything.

Well no, that's not what I was saying. But that's my bad for not saying it directly because I didn't want to be rude. People who have an actual interest in learning how things work (young mechanic) will know more about something than people who have just spent a lot of time around that thing without trying to figure it out (older person who has simply driven a car for decades).

The OP of this thread says the guide wanted him to use a 30 caliber minimum. And then someone else posted saying their guide was cool with anything .25-06 and up. Are the first guide's elk wearing bulletproof vests? Why do those two guides not agree despite each having a lot of experience seeing stuff shot?

 

[Diamondback]

The OP's 6.5 PRC is more than adequate at harvesting any game in North America.

Do people forget the old 1893 made 6.5x55 Swedish was killing Moose, Polar bear and big game at less velocity? For the last 132 years a 6.5mm bullet has been killing big game just fine.
Shot placement, bullet construction, penetration?

The 6.5 PRC is faster and with modern premium bullets, more lethal!
If a "Guide" does not want to understand the above, don't argue, cancel, and walk away.
It's your time and money!

 

[LongWayAround]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Yes there are guys like that, no question. But there are more that know what they are doing but choose to hunt (while building points waiting for a draw) rather than build points for years then go hunt occasionally.

All of the good hunters I know hunt on their own while building points and waiting to draw better tags. So who is typically going guided?

 

[Quandary]

If they don't have an interest in interpreting those experiences, you'll get the lazy stuff that 99% of guides say. My anecdotal experience on having to hear about what X guide recommends for Y game about 1,000 times is I don't think I've heard a north american guide base their recommendations on bullets, only cartridges. Which gives me the impression they don't really know what they're talking about.

If they're seeing a lot of bad shooters (which they definitely are), why do their recommendations have relevance to people who don't suck at shooting? And is one of the reasons their shooters suck because those people are using big magnums that they can't shoot well?

Well no, that's not what I was saying. But that's my bad for not saying it directly because I didn't want to be rude. People who have an actual interest in learning how things work (young mechanic) will know more about something than people who have just spent a lot of time around that thing without trying to figure it out (older person who has simply driven a car for decades).

The OP of this thread says the guide wanted him to use a 30 caliber minimum. And then someone else posted saying their guide was cool with anything .25-06 and up. Are the first guide's elk wearing bulletproof vests? Why do those two guides not agree despite each having a lot of experience seeing stuff shot?

I was the person that posted on the guide says anything 25-06 0r above for Elk. I have also had guides who were adament on one bullet or another, not that I necessarily agreed with them. But I am always willing to listen to them and try to understand their point of view.

There are great posters on this forum. Unfortunately there are a lot of dufus' on this forum who don't know anything about much of anything who double that with being close minded and triple it by makiing pejorative posts. Mostly I read those posts with amusement, occasionally I post a contrary pov without going into the proceeding. For example; "I get a kick out of guys citing "guides." Half them are just there to drive the truck and most of the remainder are probably biased by their incompetent clients. I'm reasonably suspicious that most people showing up for a guided elk hunt are the "box of whatever will last five years" type of shooter." Is simply an asinine pejorative statement made by someone who likely doesn't know much about anything. Not wanting to be rude I occasionally try to point this out without being this direct.

 

[JohnJohnson]

I was the person that posted on the guide says anything 25-06 0r above for Elk

Why don't they agree with other guides then? If the same amount of experience killing elk has led them to a different recommendation, why should we trust that process to produce good recommendations?

Unfortunately there are a lot of dufus' on this forum who don't know anything about much of anything who double that with being close minded

You don't see the irony here?

For example; "I get a kick out of guys citing "guides." Half them are just there to drive the truck and most of the remainder are probably biased by their incompetent clients. I'm reasonably suspicious that most people showing up for a guided elk hunt are the "box of whatever will last five years" type of shooter." Is simply an asinine pejorative statement made by someone who likely doesn't know much about anything. Not wanting to be rude I occasionally try to point this out without being this direct.

I don't find it to be rude since I'm not the one that said that.

 

[rookieforever33]

Guides are people too. And everyone has their own opinion. Fact is, most bullets and most calibers kill just fine. If your guide has a preference its due to past experiences of own hunts and guiding hunters. They are entitled to their opinion just like anyone on a forum. If you have a valid reason and experience otherwise talk it out with them.
Acting like people that spend thousands on outfitters, plus years of points only shoot a few bullets a year is pretty ignorant. Hiring a guide is really just hiring someone to scout and handle logistics. The percentage of guided hunters that dont practice is probably less than casual hunters that can hunt as they please. To the OPs point, yes the 6.5 prc is enough. As are all legal calibers if you put the bullet in the right place.

 

[wyosam]

Makes all the difference if you miss by 0.010”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Some guides have weird opinions on guns but why a 6.5prc pulsar work for elk is batons me. I’ve shot 12 or 13 bulls and all of them went down from a 270 with factory 130g silver tops. I’m sure the modern 6.5 bullets are better than those gray box silvertips from wal mart.

I’ve had an aoudad guide swear up and down that 300wm was the minimum and he recommended a bigger cartridge if possible. On our second hunt we shit awesome rams with a 30-06 and a 6.5 creedmoor, both one shot kills, both more pleasant than shooting my old 300wm.

 

[Quandary]

Why don't they agree with other guides then? If the same amount of experience killing elk has led them to a different recommendation, why should we trust that process to produce good recommendations.

Why don't all Oncologists agree on the same course of treatment, they all went to med school. Why don't all meteorologists come up with the same forecast, they all have degrees in meteorology. Why don't all the F1 teams build the exact same car, all the teams have mechanical engineers, wind tunnels, aerodynamists.

You don't see the irony here?

I assume you are referring to yourself and your unwillingness to acknowledge that an individual who has significant experience in an endeavor that you pursue may have a POV worth listening to? You may not agree with the individual, he/she might be full of it, but maybe not.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Assuming short, long, or magnum cartridges between 6mm and 12.5mm (for the sake of legality in many jurisdictions) and “modern expanding bullets”, the minimum cartridge and bullet combination that will work is the minimum cartridge and bullet combination with which the hunter feels most comfortable. On North American game, there just isn’t enough difference in lethality to make a measurable difference within that range.

If you think a 7mm PRC gives you a better chance of success than a 6.5mm PRC, then use the 7mm. Assuming equal shooting ability with each, that is the better choice for you. The rifle you like and have confidence in is the better rifle for you than one you don’t like and in which you have no confidence. Just don’t fool yourself: you, the shooter, still need to do your part.

The animal won’t know the difference if the bullet goes through the vitals. It won’t be more dead from a .458 bullet than a .243 bullet. If the bullet doesn’t go through the vitals, then the cartridge that launched it won’t make any difference. A near miss with a .458 isn’t any more lethal than a near miss with a .243.

I’ve seen deer run a surprising distance with a well-placed bullet from a 300 Weatherby. I have also seen a deer go DRT from a liver shot from a .30-30. Anecdotal evidence is of very limited value.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[BCDJR]

The original question on this post was about needing a 7mm. I have a lot of guns including a 6.5 PRC from Gunwerks. I’ve shot 6.5 CM and .270. I have 7 rem mag, 300 win mag and .375. I have killed animals with all of them. The larger faster bullets are better in the wind. Larger bullets are better at angled shots or in thick timber. I see a lot of comments about guides and how ignorant they are. I know three guides who also work for major custom rifle companies and their knowledge is excellent with ballistics and bullets. Aaron Davidson of Gunwerks is in a video saying the 7 REM Mag is the best elk medicine. Jim Shockley has a video on best moose gun which he says is the .300 PRC. Both of these gentlemen are typically at the national shows and both are approachable in my experience. So I would encourage doubters to meet them and tell them why they are wrong. Getting back to the gentleman who asked the question originally about the 7mm. I have attended long range hunting schools so I understand all the ballistics and current data. I’ve reviewed data and videos of the NATO Ballistc gel results. In my opinion getting a 7mm in your arsenal will expand your hunting opportunities over and above your 6mm. Good luck!

 

[Grizzle]

The original question on this post was about needing a 7mm. I have a lot of guns including a 6.5 PRC from Gunwerks. I’ve shot 6.5 CM and .270. I have 7 rem mag, 300 win mag and .375. I have killed animals with all of them. The larger faster bullets are better in the wind. Larger bullets are better at angled shots or in thick timber. I see a lot of comments about guides and how ignorant they are. I know three guides who also work for major custom rifle companies and their knowledge is excellent with ballistics and bullets. Aaron Davidson of Gunwerks is in a video saying the 7 REM Mag is the best elk medicine. Jim Shockley has a video on best moose gun which he says is the .300 PRC. Both of these gentlemen are typically at the national shows and both are approachable in my experience. So I would encourage doubters to meet them and tell them why they are wrong. Getting back to the gentleman who asked the question originally about the 7mm. I have attended long range hunting schools so I understand all the ballistics and current data. I’ve reviewed data and videos of the NATO Ballistc gel results. In my opinion getting a 7mm in your arsenal will expand your hunting opportunities over and above your 6mm. Good luck!

Care to explain how a 7mm will expand your opertunities over a 6mm?

 

[BCDJR]

Care to explain how a 7mm will expand your opertunities over a 6mm?

The gentleman asked about 7mm….so a 28 Nosler is a 7mm. A 7 Saum is 7mm. A 7mm Backcountry is a 7mm . Weatherby has options. The ole 7 rem mag is another. So look up case capacity and bullet weights. Don’t forget to check wind drift and spin drift.

 

[Grizzle]

The gentleman asked about 7mm….so a 28 Nosler is a 7mm. A 7 Saum is 7mm. A 7mm Backcountry is a 7mm . Weatherby has options. The ole 7 rem mag is another. So look up case capacity and bullet weights. Don’t forget to check wind drift and spin drift.

Thanks but that did nothing to answer my question other than backing up the fact that cartridge is far less important than projectile. Saying a 7mm is better than a 6mm is nonsense without knowing which bullet and the velocity its being pushed

 

[Stocky]

It means that experienced professional guides have vastly more experience in killing animals than 95% of Rokslide posters, including me. As I said guides are not ballisticians, but they do see a many animals shot, with many different calibers and many different bullets, by many different shooters good, bad or indifferent. Consequently they have significant anecdotal experience as to what kills and what leads to rodeo's. They see bad shooters, bad bullets, bad calibers for the circumstances and the flip side. This experience lends them a certain amount of credibility in their view of good killing. Now that said are there bad guides, guides that don't know crap, guides that are inexprienced, absolutely. However I don't think their opinion can simply be dismissed as worthless and is certainly more well found in experience than 95% who post in forums. Does the typical guide have your experience and knowledge in these matters no, but they do have most than most.

Well how about the fact most professional animal culling in NZ occurs with a 223 and the back in the day the forest service almost decimated deer with the .222. That's tens of thousands of animals yearly. Also many are shot running from a chopper so less than perfect placement.

In fact most kiwis that hunt will kill as many animals as guides see per year due to our seasons. Experience means nothing compared to considered experience. Just repeating the same thing teaches nothing, purposefully and methodically testing things is worth 10x just repeating the same thing.

As a guide I would never supply too small a calibre gun even though I think its better as I wouldnt want to risk a bad client making a bad shot and blaming the rifle. When I was guiding BC almost universally everyone with bigger magnums shot worse. Very few actually knew anything about terminal performance except they had used it before and it worked.

There is a wide range of guides some that dont know a thing and just take people to easy animals on private. And some that are great hunters and really are top professionals. Often a dedicated hunter with the same gear will outperform a guide even with less experience. Shit I showed up from NZ to BC with limited horse experience and was packing, and dealing with horses within a week. I'd never claim I was a horse expert but I had no problems guidng horse supported hunts. I had however killed more animals than most North Americans get to and spent alot of time hunting animals in the alpine as we haven't got season or tag limitations.