In the rear with the gear

[LongWayAround]

I think we would all prefer for our chickenshit political administration to secure our southern border, and the rest of our borders for that matter. That's an incredibly irrelevant comparison for this topic.

I don't see any correlation between that issue and the conflict in Ukraine. Obviously, the Ukraine is not without issues (corruption etc.) outside of the current conflict. Putin's Russia has been pushing their limits for years and it's good to see them get pushed back. I don't care what their border looked like thirty years ago either.

I do agree that the change in media tone is interesting.

 

[tcpip95]

I think we would all prefer for our chickenshit political administration to secure our southern border, and the rest of our borders for that matter. That's an incredibly irrelevant comparison for this topic.

I don't see any correlation between that issue and the conflict in Ukraine. Obviously, the Ukraine is not without issues (corruption etc.) outside of the current conflict. Putin's Russia has been pushing their limits for years and it's good to see them get pushed back. I don't care what their border looked like thirty years ago either.

I do agree that the change in media tone is interesting.

I agree with what you are saying. The point that I was trying to make is that if we aren't extremely careful, we could be waging a war on 2 (actually 3 if you count the southern border) fronts. If that were to be the case, we would have to prioritize our order of battle. Through this lense, in what order of importance would you place them:

- Ukraine
- China
- Southern Border

Which fight(s) would you prefer? I personally don't think that Ukraine is that important to us, so that would be at the bottom of my list. I would give Ukraine to Russia (they're going to take it anyways so the point is moot). China is a very difficult decision. While they don't have a blue water navy, they do have the S. China Sea right in their back yards, and could wreak havoc on our navy should we decide to engage them. (Let's come back to China in a minute). So that leaves us with our Southern Border. How many infiltrators (by this I mean Russia, China, Iran, and their allies) could get through our Southern Border today if they wanted to? It's not just Guatemalans, Hondurans, Mexicans that can/are coming across the border. That also includes a means for them to get weapons and explosives into the country.

So taking the above scenario into consideration, China and the Southern Border are our top two threats. Actually the Southern Border is first, because that is the one that can cause the most death and distruction to Americans on American soil.

Suddenly, Ukraine doesn't seem like that important of a deal.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I think the best plan of action is to update our social media profiles with the Ukrainian flag.

 

[LongWayAround]

tcpip95, I mostly agree with that.

Our southern border is a disaster. It is unthinkable that we have had a total lack of enforcement for over two years now.

China is just biding their time. I have no doubt they are playing their cards to see how this unfolds.

I'm not totally sold on whether the Russians will reacquire Ukraine. While I'm in favor of arming the Ukrainians, the last thing I would want is our military directly fighting the Russians. Though I'm pretty sure they would get wrecked...

China is definitely a bigger threat to the United States than is Russia. There's no debate on that front.

Unfortunately, the previous president couldn't shut up long enough to keep his office and the current one has made clear he has no interest in securing our country.

It will be "interesting" to see how the next few years play out.

 

[chopchop]

I'm with @5MilesBack. Get our own house in order first. Let Europe handle this. They talk about a "huge refugee problem" in Poland and Europe. 2.5 million!

We had 154k come into our country illegally in January of 2022 alone. On average CBP is encountering 3,000+ PER DAY. They're gaslighting this by using the Ukraine War while ignoring the real problem here at home.

I mostly lurk on this forum and do a little trading here and there. I’m not really a pot stirrer.

Just wanted to point out that 3,000 per day is about 1.1 million per year.

There have been roughly 2.5 million refugees from Ukraine in the last 2 weeks, and there are more on the way.

Over a million refugees are now in Poland alone, and Poland is about the size of New Mexico. Before the war in Ukraine there were already about 38 million people there.

All these folks need food, shelter, water.

It is a huge refugee problem.

 

[sneaky]

I think the best plan of action is to update our social media profiles with the Ukrainian flag.

Thoughts and prayers!

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[Dos Perros]

OK, but how are "we" going to stop him? The only way that happens is if we go in with air power, and now we're in a full blown shooting war. Over what? You need to understand what Russia sees. Look at this map:
View attachment 390090

Russia has always had a buffer between them and Europe. That buffer was in the form of the Warsaw Pact until it dissolved in 1991. To get to Russia you had to go through another country. After seeing what Hitler attempted to do, the Russians have vowed to never let it happen again. Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, and Moldova kept the European empires off of Russia's borders. The Black Sea separated them from Turkey and Greece. When Ukraine separated in 1991 they were to take on a role similar to Finland. Then, over the years they decide that they're going to try and join the EU. The final straw was when they decided that they're going to join NATO. Now Russia has a non-friendly on their border. Putin - along with the Russian people - are not going to allow it. There are still Russians alive who fought the Nazis. They still remember.

So back to my question: So how are you going to stop them? Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania are all part of NATO now, so Putin is not going to go after them. The Ukraine? Different story. We're on reel 3 of this 4 reel movie and everyone knows how it's going to end.

When you force someone's hand (like the West did with talks of Ukraine joining NATO), they're going to push back. Why do you think that we have always agreed with "The One-China Agreement"? Because the moment you declare that Taiwan is an independent country, China is coming. They're coming anyways, it's just a matter of not getting sucked into a war on two fronts.

Deterrence by all means. Brute force if necessary.

What makes you think I don’t understand?

 

[Deadfall]

War is a ponzi scheme. This one is no different. The good club is benefitting in some form. They always have from war and always will. They do so at expense of human life. There's no doubt in my mind our government is involved in this wreck. Just as they have always been involved in past wrecks.

What troubles me to some degree is the attention this is getting. Makes me wonder what the good club is hiding.

Don't get me wrong, Ukraine is a catastrophe. Find it weird that our government and news is always moving from one catastrophe to another.

This pops up just as covid is winding down? Where's the coverage on the vaccine report? That report is troubling.

It's not like this is first time putin gas pulled this nonsense? Russia been trying to take Ukraine for decades.

Anyway, no doubt in my brain the good club is up to something. Recon we will find out after mid terms

 

[Wapiti1]

I mostly lurk on this forum and do a little trading here and there. I’m not really a pot stirrer.

Just wanted to point out that 3,000 per day is about 1.1 million per year.

There have been roughly 2.5 million refugees from Ukraine in the last 2 weeks, and there are more on the way.

Over a million refugees are now in Poland alone, and Poland is about the size of New Mexico. Before the war in Ukraine there were already about 38 million people there.

All these folks need food, shelter, water.

It is a huge refugee problem.

While it is a large problem in a small time frame, a big difference is that they will by and large go back home when this is all settled. Regardless of whether they are now called Russians or Ukrainians, they will go home. And humanitarian aid is easy on this one. Good supply chains, no major corruption, and a lot of willing donators. This will play out over the next year, and the problem will, for the most part, go away on its own.

None of our illegal aliens are going home willingly and we get to deal with that issue. This is not an anti-immigration comment, just a fact. There is no humanitarian aid flooding in to deal with our illegals and no group of nations putting efforts into our problem.

As for Ukraine, this is a European issue. Just like illegal immigration is a North America issue. They'll have to negotiate their way out of it, and we'll just ignore our problem. The USA should support humanitarian efforts and do right by our allies when asked. Ukraine isn't an ally. They played both sides, and will do so in the future.

The west will be the scapegoat for whatever the outcome is. Ukraine stands, Russia will propagandize the west is evil and embolden Putin to be more of an ass. Ukraine falls, the west didn't do enough for those poor souls.

Jeremy

 

[bsnedeker]

War is a ponzi scheme. This one is no different. The good club is benefitting in some form. They always have from war and always will. They do so at expense of human life. There's no doubt in my mind our government is involved in this wreck. Just as they have always been involved in past wrecks.

What troubles me to some degree is the attention this is getting. Makes me wonder what the good club is hiding.

Don't get me wrong, Ukraine is a catastrophe. Find it weird that our government and news is always moving from one catastrophe to another.

This pops up just as covid is winding down? Where's the coverage on the vaccine report? That report is troubling.

It's not like this is first time putin gas pulled this nonsense? Russia been trying to take Ukraine for decades.

Anyway, no doubt in my brain the good club is up to something. Recon we will find out after mid terms

This war is the best thing that could have happened to the democrats. The border, inflation, vaccines, Afghanistan.... if they didn't come up with something to distract everyone they would have had no chance in the midterms. With the media getting everyone worked up about the Ukraine it at least gives them a fighting chance. Notice how Biden is calling it "Putins Inflation" and "Putins Gas Prices".

In addition to that, the military industrial complex now gets to sell a bunch of guns that we'll ship over to the Ukraine! Nevermind that those guns will probably be pointed back at us in 10 years if history is any indication.

The saddest part is that it will work. Millions of people will fall for it.

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[jmez]

People are stupid


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[tcpip95]

Deterrence by all means. Brute force if necessary.

What makes you think I don’t understand?

Because you sound like you're willing to die on the Ukraine hill - which will give China a complete free reign to disrupt the entire S. China Sea region, suck us into a war on two fronts, and completely destroy our economy. That is exactly what bin Laden did back in 2001. He sucked us into the longest conflict in our history. Going to war with China will do the same thing.

Ukraine is the not hill that we should die on. China is the much greater threat.

 

[displacedtexan]

Were you this passionate about every other conflict around the world over the past ~ 20 years? Serious question, seems strange that people are up in arms over Ukraine but largely silent on other conflicts. Why do you suppose that is? Oh right, it’s because the news told us to care.

This is the first time in my adult life that a country has invaded another country and claimed it as their own...

 

[Titan_Bow]

This is the first time in my adult life that a country has invaded another country and claimed it as their own...

It’s happened a lot.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions


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[displacedtexan]

It’s happened a lot.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions


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To claim it as theirs.

War and conflict have been constant, but redrawing the map isn't.

 

[Dos Perros]

Because you sound like you're willing to die on the Ukraine hill - which will give China a complete free reign to disrupt the entire S. China Sea region, suck us into a war on two fronts, and completely destroy our economy. That is exactly what bin Laden did back in 2001. He sucked us into the longest conflict in our history. Going to war with China will do the same thing.

Ukraine is the not hill that we should die on. China is the much greater threat.

You think Bin Laden destroyed our economy?

You know what bub, I’m not going to argue with you. Cute lil feller.

 

[tcpip95]

You think Bin Laden destroyed our economy?

You know what bub, I’m not going to argue with you. Cute lil feller.

Let me help you to understand pal.

Take a look at this link: https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306#toc-budget-deficit-by-year-since-1929

1991 our deficit increased by $432 billion then slowly increased - at a decreasing rate - until in 2000 in was a mere $18 billion y/y increase.

Then in 2001 in jumped to $421 billion, followed by each year of increases of greater than $500 billion until 2015, when it was only $327 billion.

Why do you suppose that was? Now take a look at the US Defense Budget:

See how it skyrockets beginning in 2001? Why do you suppose that was?

 

[bsnedeker]

Let me help you to understand pal.

Take a look at this link: https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306#toc-budget-deficit-by-year-since-1929

1991 our deficit increased by $432 billion then slowly increased - at a decreasing rate - until in 2000 in was a mere $18 billion y/y increase.

Then in 2001 in jumped to $421 billion, followed by each year of increases of greater than $500 billion until 2015, when it was only $327 billion.

Why do you suppose that was? Now take a look at the US Defense Budget:
View attachment 390902
See how it skyrockets beginning in 2001? Why do you suppose that was?

War is, unfortunately, very good for the economy. Your graphs prove the point. Defense spending is way up, but notice how the percent of GDP has gone down despite that? That is because of economy has been exploding over this period.

This is why it is so dangerous. We are at a point where our economy is impossibly entangled with the military industrial complex. Our politicians and media understand this, which is why those groups are packed to the gills with war hawks.



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[tcpip95]

War is, unfortunately, very good for the economy. Your graphs prove the point. Defense spending is way up, but notice how the percent of GDP has gone down despite that? That is because of economy has been exploding over this period.

This is why it is so dangerous. We are at a point where our economy is impossibly entangled with the military industrial complex. Our politicians and media understand this, which is why those groups are packed to the gills with war hawks.



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Yep, no argument there.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

War is, unfortunately, very good for the economy.

Money spent for the express purpose of destroying life and property is not a net benefit to society or the economy at large, even if that spending does temporarily boost a largely meaningless econometric like GDP.