Impact and numbness on balls of feel/big toe-Lowa Tibets

Grady.J

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I've got a pair of Lowa Tibet GTX's, and generally speaking, I feel they fit me pretty great. I don't get any blisters or hotspots, though that said I usually pre-tape my heels with Leukotape before any extended wear, mostly out of habit as I did it during the break in period. I had the same pieces of tape on my heels for 5 days straight hunting this year and they were still fine at the end of it, and I don't tape anymore for training hikes that are around an hour or so.

I've had them since last December, and have used them throughout the year hiking and training, and on a couple of hunts now so they should be broken in.

My issue is, on that 5 day hunt there were a couple of decently big mileage days, and the balls of my feet felt like they got beat to hell, especially on the last day, I had to walk a mile and a half on a well maintained hard packed dirt road to get back to the truck after hiking down. As well, my big toes in particular got numb. The hunt was a month ago now, and my left one has regained pretty much all feeling, but my right one still feels a little numb.

Any thoughts on the cause/cure? I can wiggle my toes fairly easily with the boots tied up, and don't have any blisters/hotspots so I feel like the fit is pretty good, they certainly feel comfortable. I replaced the factory insoles with Superfeet orange, though I've only been able to wear them for a few short training hikes since I got them. They seem to help a bit, but my toes will start to feel a bit numb after about an hour or so. They are a higher volume insole than the factory ones, not sure if that's a good thing or not.

Do I need some more space in the toe box area for circulation? Are there better high impact insoles out there? Am I just being a baby and this is to be expected from stiff mountain boots? Thanks all.
 

wapitibob

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Big toe can go numb from compression of the nerve that runs down the top of the foot and out to that toe. Don't know about balls of feet but I'd guess a figment problem, boot volume, etc. I've found the lathrop insoles take up less volume than standard insoles and provide better cushion. I had 4 pair of superfeet, they sucked. Way to slick and no cushion. I like my boots to fit snug enough that nothing can move except my toes. Both my cevedale and now the hanwag were set up this way. The boot isn't gonna move so if your foot does I think you'll be asking for trouble.
 
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kylem

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I had some issues with my big toe going numb in a pair of salewa's when I first got them last summer. Once I loosened up the laces on the tops of my feet the problem went away immediately.
 

tttoadman

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I have gotten sore feet from my Tibets also, but only after serious miles. I have moved to the Sofsole inserts like these after receiving a pair in a used pair of boots.
Sof Sole: THIN FIT
I used to think I needed arch support, but after getting quality boots and learning to walk, I found that wasn't my problem. I have gotten the numb toes as well, but I know that was from wearing the Tibets with heavy socks in winter that made them too tight.
 

rm06

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I've had the exact same issue with Tibets, I tried numerous footbeds and sock combinations without relief. In the end, I went with the Cevedale Pro (Tech Light Hunter) which provides a similarly stiff and supportive boot but without the pain.

It was an expensive venture to say the least but I did manage to recoup most of my costs. I cannot give you a technical explanation as to why I experienced the problems I did with the Tibets but I do believe some gear just doesn't work for some people, unfortunately it can be expensive to find this out.
 
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I bought into the marketing and tried super feet b/c I had plantar fasciitis after doing the infantry thing. Used them in my tibets and had all kinds of problems about like yours to include heel slippage. Last year I took them out and put no inserts whatsoever and it created not only more room across the top of my foot but seemed to seat the heal to perfection being lower in the pocket. I was worried about the perceived lack of cushion on longer walks. Also changed to fairly thin 100% wool socks. Wore the tibets this year on my elk hunt and it was awesome. I think those boots are so stiff and with enough material below your feet than no padding is needed. Never really got cold toes either even though I was glassing off ridges while sitting on a butt pad in snow for hours. A little wiggle room seemed to help there as well.

Having them too tight across the top as a result of filling up the space with fat inserts and fat socks creates more problems than it cures by pinching nerves and cutting circulation.
 
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jmez

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Very common, google Alpine toe or Christmas toe and you can read for weeks on the subject. It is the result of compression and damage to the medial plantar nerve in the foot. The nerve runs right along side of the big toe. You boots are likely a little too tight in the toe box. Even if they don't feel too tight you are getting compression on the nerve.
 

Akicita

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How cold was it?

This is a pretty common problem. Two most common causes are poor blood circulation or "Neuroma" which is the damage of nerves between the tarsal bones of the feet and / or frost bite. If the numbness in your toes or feet have not gone away after a few days, weeks or month I am guessing from my subject matter experience you are suffering from a mild degree of frost bite. It doesn’t have to be bitterly cold to get this. If the weather was mild and your feet did not get cold then here may be some other things to consider:

- Are your boots to small?-
Give a solid object a good swift kick and if your toes hit the front of the boot your boots are to short. If your good on length and you cant wiggle your toes in the toe box after a half mile or so you need to loosen the lacing at the toe box and tighten the lacing at the instep. If that doesn't work you need a bigger boot. Start off with a loose toe box lace to allow for swelling.

- Are your boots to loose?-
If you find that you are curling your toes to avoid heel or sole slip you need to let your foot flatten out by rolling through the stride heel first. Use a ladder or box lock lace at the instep to force your foot back in the heel cup to reduce slip. This will make the balss of your feet and the tips of your toes sore.

-Do your boots have to much flex?-
Light / Medium hiking boots have a lot of sole flex which can create a lot of the stride problems listed above. I personally use a very stiff mountaineering style boot for this very reason to minimize flex at the balls and toes of my feet and force a heel to toe stride with minimum slip.

- Do you have health issues?-
Peripheral Neuropathy and Diabetic Nueropathy can be causes also if you are subject to low blood sugar, vitamin deficient or being out of condition.

In my experience if you are healthy and were not subjected to cold temperatures, common toe numbness can be minimized or eliminated with a properly sized and properly laced stiff sole mountaineering boot.
 
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Grady.J

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Thanks for all the replies, certainly a couple of things to dig into and try out to see if they help.



Big toe can go numb from compression of the nerve that runs down the top of the foot and out to that toe. Don't know about balls of feet but I'd guess a figment problem, boot volume, etc. I've found the lathrop insoles take up less volume than standard insoles and provide better cushion. I had 4 pair of superfeet, they sucked. Way to slick and no cushion. I like my boots to fit snug enough that nothing can move except my toes. Both my cevedale and now the hanwag were set up this way. The boot isn't gonna move so if your foot does I think you'll be asking for trouble.

I think I'm going to give Lathrop and Sons a call, to get their thoughts on it, and at the very least try out their insole. If it's lower volume than Superfeet, and maybe even the factory ones, that might be a good thing. I also like to keep my boots tight to lock everything in place, but leave a bit around the toes.

I have gotten sore feet from my Tibets also, but only after serious miles. I have moved to the Sofsole inserts like these after receiving a pair in a used pair of boots.
Sof Sole: THIN FIT
I used to think I needed arch support, but after getting quality boots and learning to walk, I found that wasn't my problem. I have gotten the numb toes as well, but I know that was from wearing the Tibets with heavy socks in winter that made them too tight.

Thanks for the link to those insoles. I may give them a shot along with the Lathrop and Sons. Do you find those ones help with the sore feet, or is that just the name of the game after big miles? How do you mean 'learning to walk'? I was wondering if perhaps there's something with my gait in these boots that could be adjusted to lessen the impact from heel to forefoot.

I bought into the marketing and tried super feet b/c I had plantar fasciitis after doing the infantry thing. Used them in my tibets and had all kinds of problems about like yours to include heel slippage. Last year I took them out and put no inserts whatsoever and it created not only more room across the top of my foot but seemed to seat the heal to perfection being lower in the pocket. I was worried about the perceived lack of cushion on longer walks. Also changed to fairly thin 100% wool socks. Wore the tibets this year on my elk hunt and it was awesome. I think those boots are so stiff and with enough material below your feet than no padding is needed. Never really got cold toes either even though I was glassing off ridges while sitting on a butt pad in snow for hours. A little wiggle room seemed to help there as well.

Having them too tight across the top as a result of filling up the space with fat inserts and fat socks creates more problems than it cures by pinching nerves and cutting circulation.

I'll give this a try, seems a cheap way to see if more space inside the boot will help. I'm not wearing huge socks, mostly Darn Tough midweight hikers, Wrightsock double layer merino, or the Costco merino trail socks.


Very common, google Alpine toe or Christmas toe and you can read for weeks on the subject. It is the result of compression and damage to the medial plantar nerve in the foot. The nerve runs right along side of the big toe. You boots are likely a little too tight in the toe box. Even if they don't feel too tight you are getting compression on the nerve.

Do you think this is something that could be rectified with some boot stretching? Just reading through that other thread going now, if I could stretch out some space alongside the big toe and generally around the toe box, I wonder if that could do anything.

How cold was it?

Hovered around freezing, aside from one day there was some morning rain it was dry and sunny. No snow, and I wasn't sitting and glassing for any super long periods. We were hunting out of a base camp, so was able to get back to a heated wall tent and get my boots off. I definitely don't think cold was a factor, mostly because I'll get the beginning stages of the numbing feeling after shorter training hikes around home, regardless of the weather.

This is a pretty common problem. Two most common causes are poor blood circulation or "Neuroma" which is the damage of nerves between the tarsal bones of the feet and / or frost bite. If the numbness in your toes or feet have not gone away after a few days, weeks or month I am guessing from my subject matter experience you are suffering from a mild degree of frost bite. It doesn’t have to be bitterly cold to get this. If the weather was mild and your feet did not get cold then here may be some other things to consider:

- Are your boots to small?-
Give a solid object a good swift kick and if your toes hit the front of the boot your boots are to short. If your good on length and you cant wiggle your toes in the toe box after a half mile or so you need to loosen the lacing at the toe box and tighten the lacing at the instep. If that doesn't work you need a bigger boot. Start off with a loose toe box lace to allow for swelling.

- Are your boots to loose?-
If you find that you are curling your toes to avoid heel or sole slip you need to let your foot flatten out by rolling through the stride heel first. Use a ladder or box lock lace at the instep to force your foot back in the heel cup to reduce slip. This will make the balss of your feet and the tips of your toes sore.

-Do your boots have to much flex?-
Light / Medium hiking boots have a lot of sole flex which can create a lot of the stride problems listed above. I personally use a very stiff mountaineering style boot for this very reason to minimize flex at the balls and toes of my feet and force a heel to toe stride with minimum slip.

- Do you have health issues?-
Peripheral Neuropathy and Diabetic Nueropathy can be causes also if you are subject to low blood sugar, vitamin deficient or being out of condition.

In my experience if you are healthy and were not subjected to cold temperatures, common toe numbness can be minimized or eliminated with a properly sized and properly laced stiff sole mountaineering boot.

I will definitely play around with how I lace the boots to see if that helps. I typically try not to go too tight around the toe area, but then tie it tight over the ankle and through the upper. The somewhat tough part is leaving them loose enough around the toes but still getting them tight enough over the ankle to lock in my heel. The boots do have a locking eyelet over the ankle, and a tongue slip post higher up to help keep things tight once tied. They are fairly stiff boots, I think they'd be classified as heavy backpacking to light mountaineeering boots.

No health issues, but I could certainly be in better condition. I'm sure if I had 40 less pounds hitting my feet every step that would help. It's certainly a project for next season.
 

tttoadman

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Oct 3, 2013
Messages
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Location
OR Hunter back in Oregon
I have gotten sore feet from my Tibets also, but only after serious miles. I have moved to the Sofsole inserts like these after receiving a pair in a used pair of boots.
Sof Sole: THIN FIT
I used to think I needed arch support, but after getting quality boots and learning to walk, I found that wasn't my problem. I have gotten the numb toes as well, but I know that was from wearing the Tibets with heavy socks in winter that made them too tight.

Thanks for the link to those insoles. I may give them a shot along with the Lathrop and Sons. Do you find those ones help with the sore feet, or is that just the name of the game after big miles? How do you mean 'learning to walk'? I was wondering if perhaps there's something with my gait in these boots that could be adjusted to lessen the impact from heel to forefoot.

I stride relatively short so I don't role over the balls of my feet like you do when you have shoes on. I basically pick my foot up and put it back down again. It reduces the tendency for your heel to lift. I don't get blisters on the balls of my feet like I used to. If I am going fast and can feel the burn starting on my heels or the balls of my feet, I can slow down a bit and usually get it to stop. Just a difference in mechanics. Turn your feet over faster to get to the same place.
 

D snyder

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Joined
Dec 31, 2017
Messages
9
I’ve noticed the same issue from time to time with my Tibet’s as well.
I use either the insert that came with the boot and a heavy sock or superfeet hikers and a thinner sock. The toe box is really stiff and any amound of compression will start that numb feeling quickly.
The other thing I noticed is that I tend to dig my toe into the footbed when I walk.
Sometimes I have to make a mental effort to just relax my foot and let the boot do work. I think it’s because the PU footbed is so stiff. Notice your tracks when you walk in soft dirt or gravel. There is a shallow dimple where your toes push off the soil because the stiff footbed digs into the soil. You might try relaxing your foot a little when you walk.
I think I needed about 30 miles or so to feel like these boots were broken in. I never had a blister, hot spot or any fitting problems. ( other than this). I’ve hiked short distances with up to 90lbs in my pack. Long distance for me is 12-16 miles. Ive worn mine down to 0 deg. Up to 70-ish and they are comfy. Best boots I’ve ever owned.
 
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This is crazy because I thought I was only one that had this problem. I to use Lowa Tibbet GTX and get numb big toe on day 2 or 3 of a trip.i use L&S insole but still get it. Never get blisters or hot spots and seems like I have plenty of room in toe box. I’ve just dealt with it, but now maybe I need to try some other boots.
 
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Grady.J

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Thanks for the replies. I've ordered the L&S insoles, hopefully they work for me. Talking to the guy on the phone it sounded like it might do the trick. Also going to do some more research on gait in heavy boots. If it doesn't work out I guess I'll be back boot shopping.
 

gelton

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I personally dont think that Alpine toe is the result of using the wrong footwear...I have used three different styles of boots and it happens to me all the time...I think it is simply from the compression of the nerve mentioned above that is associated with climbing.
 
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