I'm calling out CPW, change my mind

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

In our crappy state (CA).... what upset me greatly is that they went and closed-down ALL the dang forests... Mine intended target was experiencing NO DIFFERENCE in conditions/temps/environment AND had NO FIRES going on in it! THAT was where my discontent lies.

THAT... was my problem when my state did that isht. IF they elected to disallow access to a forest which currently had a fire burning in it... I'd be upset... but I could at least understand that and wrap my head around it. (To some degree, it's big forest, and it's not like the whole damn thing can be burning at the same time.)

But this business of "Close 'Em All!!!" was just sheer massive laziness on their part. I'm sure they didn't want to have to deal with one section whining about why another section was allowed in. And to add to that... they don't reimburse for tags that have already been bought. So when they pulled this closure isht... it's like they're taking money out of my pocket, and in my case, with no fires there, nor any other change from normal, for no good reason.

Then... after they did allow us to go back in. They disallowed (and still are disallowing) disbursed camping. So that meant up at 3a drive out... hike in 6mi.... spend all day til PM... hike 6 back out... drive back home..... recup day.... then lather rinse repeat for the rest of that week I'd taken PTO for. That starts to take it's toll on ya when you've got some years on ya.

So anyhoo... this is where my contention with that type of notion comes in. When they just layout blanket statements like that which don't apply to all areas. Not cool.

Lots of hunters, and those who enjoy the outdoors, have been negatively impacted by various decisions this year.

Were you just as outraged about the hunters across the country that had to eat their hunting fees due to COVID travel restrictions in the spring? While the various states may have issued refunds, I do not recall hearing anything about it.

Are you just as outraged about all of the hunters across the country whose hunting plans were disrupted/altered due to US Forestry Service closures? How many states even considered issuing refunds? Be thankful that CA (of all places) even considered it.

Are you just as outraged that (at least in AZ) the US Forestry Service will only fine outfitters, guides, and their clients for violating the closures yet willfully turn a blind eye to DIY hunters and those who are just enjoying the outdoors?

Or are you just outraged because you personally were "impacted"? It sounds like you still had the opportunity to hunt but chose not to since you could not hunt the way you wanted to.

Due to restrictions in place by the US Forestry Service, I had to alter my black bear hunting plans in AZ this fall. I still went hunting and made the most of it. No, I did not hunt where I planned to. No, I did not get to camp where I planned to. No, I was unable to cook s'mores over an open flame. I did get to see some new country. If I had thrown a temper tantrum and stayed home, then I would have nothing. But I went and "settled" for my consolation prize: a 7' bruiser of a boar.

 

[Wapiti406]

Neither driving or going into the woods is a Constitutional right. We elect politicians who appoint people who hire bureaucrats to manage the roads and the forests. I wouldn't want to go into the forest if it was actually dryer than a popcorn fart, people would probably self combust. I'd ask what criterion are burocrates using to close the forests? And how long have they been using this criterion? A week, a month, a year, ten years? If someone said the forest circus has been using the same criterion for decades to close the forests, I say wow, that's amazing and I'd back that. If the criterion get less and less to shut the forest down, like I imagine is happening, but could be completely wrong, I'd say hmm is that criterion too strick?

I'm not in CO, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the criteria is that on that specific area it is currently unseasonably warm and dry?

Back to my analogy... What criterion does the highway departmentacircus use to close interstates and highways? I suppose that the criterion that the highway department uses has been utilized less than that of the criterion for the USDA. Over the years it seems to takes less and less to shut down an interstate. Im not sure where you're from, but if you could imagine driving between Livingston, MT and Reed Point, MT. Im guessing that the highway closures due to the potential of highway accidents occur more frequently now than they did in the 00s, 90s, 80s, 70s, etc. Similar to how we may be seeing more forest closures.

To be fair, riding my dirt bike on single track is a very close second to chasing elk and deer on my list of favorites. Yes, seeing closures happen due to fire danger does annoy me. But, I feel that no matter how much I love to hunt burns, I'd rather it not burn.

 

[Marbles]

Absolutely for first block!! Second block, EH, maybe, maybe not and it doesn't matter much, burocrates cover their butts in California, maybe they are different in Colorado? With more and more droughts, more and more careless people and depending where you live, possibly over cautious burocrates managing our forests, this will be more and more common, as is happening. Where do you draw the line? That's the question. I don't know, but I certainly don't trust bureaucrats. Call me skeptical of anything and everything government. I'm sure glad we have a 2nd Amendment or else we would have more common sense and gun safety laws than we already have.

I'll agree with the need to set hard limits on power, sometimes at the expense of public expedience. The Bill of Rights represents such limit setting, and there are many other statues and rulings that also do this. Many of them only came about after a legal or political challenge to something that was done. In this case, I suspect a legal challenge would fail on the merits. Perhaps one of the outraged people on this thread should test that for us.

However, there is also a need to support those in positions of authority and use the legal system to mount challenges. Some of the comments on this thread, while using different wording, have similarities to "defund the police." Perhaps I am miss reading them, but they sound more subversive than a rational call to review how things are currently implemented and if needed provide a check on legitimate authority that may be over stepping its bounds.

I have not read any comments that argue against the closures based on wild land fire principles to establish a lack of risk. In fact, it sounds like those who have experience working with wild land fires are in favor of the closures. I have, however, heard people argue that they have a right to endanger the homes and lives of others to engage in recreation.

There is healthy skepticism, then there is the corrosive kind that erodes the trust needed for a free society to function. A society that blindly trusts will end up enslaved to an equally blind machine of government. However, a society that constantly undermines everyone in it will end up as slaves to its strongest members because it will drive away or corrupt the strong ones who are willing to stand on the proverbial wall and say "not on my watch."

I think we probably agree more than disagree. However, where and how to draw lines remains important enough to be worth discussing.

 

[TheGDog]

Perhaps people aren't familiar with the geography of Colorado. Comments about having little compassion for people who live in dangerous areas.....

Fort Collins, where I'm from, sits along the I-25 corridor 60 mi north of Denver. If we didn't have the mountains to our west we would look a lot like what Nebraska and Kansas look like. We are basically situated on the steps of the Rockies - More planes than anything else.

I don't recall who made the comment but I am in no way shape or form living in a compromised area.

And even if I was - Even if I chose to make my home in an area such as red feather lakes - an area which has been evacuated - My house and my home and my safety Will always be more important and should carry much more significance than somebody's passion hobby if you will.

callus comments about not having any sympathy for people who have built homes in potentially compromised areas...... Brings my blood to boil. Entitlement makes you sound like a spoiled brat.

Empathy is the ability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and one of the comments that talked about pity not having a role here - empathy compassion and pity are absolutely necessary right now.

Vandy talking about how he lost I'm home in a hurricane? If I use the same mentality on vandy I would shame him for living in an area that could have potentially had a hurricane come through. I mean he must be stupid if he lives where a hurricane could come through in that frame of mind right?

No tragedy is tragedy empathy compassion and pity are always necessary regardless of how you got there.

Instead of trying to be divisive let's look for ways that we can be inclusive - I like the comments about donating time and effort towards volunteer fire departments. Those of you who don't have compassion probably should donate some of your time to a worthy cause and see a different chapter....



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OK... so you're telling me... that if you see some rich bastard who decided to have a home up on a hill... or near the edge of a cliff overlooking the ocean... especially if partially propped-up on stilts... and then later-on you saw this same person BooHoo'in about their Multi-Million-Dollar home slidin' off because of rain-erosion or an Earthquake... you're tellin' us you *wouldn't* be thinking "Well Duh! Build that isht on a cliff... what did ya expect?"

I'm asking because the same applies here.

 

[fngTony]

I'll agree with the need to set hard limits on power, sometimes at the expense of public expedience. The Bill of Rights represents such limit setting, and there are many other statues and rulings that also do this. Many of them only came about after a legal or political challenge to something that was done. In this case, I suspect a legal challenge would fail on the merits. Perhaps one of the outraged people on this thread should test that for us.

However, there is also a need to support those in positions of authority and use the legal system to mount challenges. Some of the comments on this thread, while using different wording, have similarities to "defund the police." Perhaps I am miss reading them, but they sound more subversive than a rational call to review how things are currently implemented and if needed provide a check on legitimate authority that may be over stepping its bounds.

I have not read any comments that argue against the closures based on wild land fire principles to establish a lack of risk. In fact, it sounds like those who have experience working with wild land fires are in favor of the closures. I have, however, heard people argue that they have a right to endanger the homes and lives of others to engage in recreation.

There is healthy skepticism, then there is the corrosive kind that erodes the trust needed for a free society to function. A society that blindly trusts will end up enslaved to an equally blind machine of government. However, a society that constantly undermines everyone in it will end up as slaves to its strongest members because it will drive away or corrupt the strong ones who are willing to stand on the proverbial wall and say "not on my watch."

I think we probably agree more than disagree. However, where and how to draw lines remains important enough to be worth discussing.

I never intended for this post to be about general closure of forest. It was to be focused on the the area’s in the op. Somehow it did become about the bigger picture of land closures which again wasn’t my intention. Admittedly I failed to explain why I felt the areas didn’t need to be closed.

 

[TheGDog]

Lots of hunters, and those who enjoy the outdoors, have been negatively impacted by various decisions this year.

Were you just as outraged about the hunters across the country that had to eat their hunting fees due to COVID travel restrictions in the spring? While the various states may have issued refunds, I do not recall hearing anything about it.

Are you just as outraged about all of the hunters across the country whose hunting plans were disrupted/altered due to US Forestry Service closures? How many states even considered issuing refunds? Be thankful that CA (of all places) even considered it.

Are you just as outraged that (at least in AZ) the US Forestry Service will only fine outfitters, guides, and their clients for violating the closures yet willfully turn a blind eye to DIY hunters and those who are just enjoying the outdoors?

Or are you just outraged because you personally were "impacted"? It sounds like you still had the opportunity to hunt but chose not to since you could not hunt the way you wanted to.

Due to restrictions in place by the US Forestry Service, I had to alter my black bear hunting plans in AZ this fall. I still went hunting and made the most of it. No, I did not hunt where I planned to. No, I did not get to camp where I planned to. No, I was unable to cook s'mores over an open flame. I did get to see some new country. If I had thrown a temper tantrum and stayed home, then I would have nothing. But I went and "settled" for my consolation prize: a 7' bruiser of a boar.

Huh? What the..? Where did you read that I said CA considered refunding anything? You kidding me? With Newscum at the wheel, HA!

And where did you read that I chose not to hunt? What the...?

I said... each day... I had to go drive all the way out there... hike in... stay till end of light, hike back out.... drive back home... (they wouldn't even let us sleep in our cars at the trailhead, told me specifically I'd get cited for that, because I made sure to ask.) take a recup day (spinal stenosis, bulging lumbar discs, retrolisthesis - an MRI just confirmed the other day) and did so all that week and then again this weekend... next weekend I've got a Duck Hunt I got drawn for, but the one after that I'll be right back out there... because they won't let us camp in there, an area COMPLETELY UNAFFECTED OR THREATENED by fires. In essence... I have to do More Than TWICE the effort! Not to mention significantly more fuel costs.

RE: Funny you mention Consolation prize - last year I had a Bobcat saunter past me at 20yds on the last day @2:30p, so decided to take him as a consolation prize. This Saturday... @9am had a Mama Doe that I'd seen during the week prior that before had 2 young ones with her... this Saturday that just past... oddly she only had one following her, the slightly smaller one was a no show... then... @5:20p I think I found out why... as I saw a BIG OL' Honkin buffed Lou Ferrigno of a Bobcat... musta been 200% the size of the modest one I got last year before the Ban on Bobcats here in CA.

Being a programmer.... What I'm against... is a lack of logic and reason. I fully can understand them wanting to enact these cautions in areas affected by these fires. But to give you a for-instance... where I'm hunting, I'm right up against some private properties that all have domiciles upon them. So it's not like disallowing me from camping in there is going to remove exposure to potential fire spark sources. And heck... I'd be ok with them telling me "Hey... you gotta do cold-camping, no heat sources at all." I might just have to trim it down a little to 2 days at a whack, since I couldn't rely upon dehydrated meals to save weight. (Which it's not really saving weight because I had to pre-hike out into there gallons of water to stash ahead of the season, in preparation for it. Because there's essentially no water access at where I'm hiked-in to. But I digress.)

P.S. Congratulations on the Bear!

P.S.S. - Re: Covid - I had it... early...directly from the source no less! I had it from 2nd week in Feb into April, got over it just a little after the first lockdown was called. I had a Flu from Dec 26th up to just 1 week before the CoVid hit. (I know because the two were very different in symptoms, you'll see as you read.) Mama brought it home from her work, musta been one of the higher-ups bringing it back from their checking in on the place that manufacturers for them, apparently right there next to WuHan. Joy! She brings it home... then 3 days later, it hits me and the boy. Though it comes on strong for all... for Mama and the boy, they rebounded an order of magnitude quicker. I've got some lung issues, since I grew up in Carson, CA. And then when Mom's remarried we move a little nearer to the Carson/Wilmington border we were near two oil refineries, Mobil on one side, ARCO on the other in Wilmington. There was a time or two Mom showed me the soot on her white Olds Cutlass from when those refineries elected to get away with turning up the stacks sometimes, such as when it's about to rain or high-winds - 'cause then they can get away with it and not be caught on the AQMD Laser spectrometer spot-checks. As a result.. seasonally I'm prone to occasionally catching a cold that'll sometimes turn into a deep bronchitis that'll take forever to get back out. And my lungs are a lil sensitive to cold air or too much A/C. And a bit of exercise-induced asthma sometimes.

During the worst part of the Covid... I was gurgling on inhale, exhale and while sleeping too. Low oxygenation, arms feeling heavy yada yada. And somehow the heavy inflammation at initial onset affected my area of injury in the lumbar/saccrum.. cause when i'd cough... my tailbone would want to give out from underneath me and I'd drop towards the floor from the twinge to that area caused by the cough! And dig this.. at initial onset... whoo man! The fever was so high I... me... who eats constantly.. I didn't eat any food for 2 days straight! Just Iced Tea.

And that's why this lockdown isht upsets me too! Neyba please! C'Mon man... I was walking around... breathing all over the place... for 2 solid months!... going to RiteAid...going to grocery store, etc. How many people you think it got propagated during all that time, eh? Let's see, we'll call it 60 days total... can you fathom just how many persons through which it could have been passed thru by then?

And I'm comin' to you all from this angle, if I... working from my home for the past 19yrs straight.. this level of seclusion... managed to come in contact with it?, nice and early?... what in the HELL makes any of the REST of you... all out and about there walking around working in the regular world think you've not been exposed to it already? Ya feel me?

And... I've compared notes with others who feel certain they'd had it around December as well.

EDIT: Oh great.... apparently the Silverado area burned today. It's part of D15... and more than far enough away from where I go it shouldn't be an issue... SIGH... but I'm bettin' when I call 'em tomorrow they're gonna tell me my area of focus will be closed. Just watch..Psssh.

 

[Jardo]

on the bright side... the units should have more mature animals next year.

oh and everyone is an a hole who has an opinion that doesn’t line up with me. good thing i don’t really have an opinion on this one.

my best wishes for anyone affected by the fire.


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[Squincher]

Perhaps people aren't familiar with the geography of Colorado. Comments about having little compassion for people who live in dangerous areas.....

Fort Collins, where I'm from, sits along the I-25 corridor 60 mi north of Denver. If we didn't have the mountains to our west we would look a lot like what Nebraska and Kansas look like. We are basically situated on the steps of the Rockies - More planes than anything else.

I don't recall who made the comment but I am in no way shape or form living in a compromised area.

And even if I was - Even if I chose to make my home in an area such as red feather lakes - an area which has been evacuated - My house and my home and my safety Will always be more important and should carry much more significance than somebody's passion hobby if you will.

callus comments about not having any sympathy for people who have built homes in potentially compromised areas...... Brings my blood to boil. Entitlement makes you sound like a spoiled brat.

Empathy is the ability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and one of the comments that talked about pity not having a role here - empathy compassion and pity are absolutely necessary right now.

Vandy talking about how he lost I'm home in a hurricane? If I use the same mentality on vandy I would shame him for living in an area that could have potentially had a hurricane come through. I mean he must be stupid if he lives where a hurricane could come through in that frame of mind right?

No tragedy is tragedy empathy compassion and pity are always necessary regardless of how you got there.

Instead of trying to be divisive let's look for ways that we can be inclusive - I like the comments about donating time and effort towards volunteer fire departments. Those of you who don't have compassion probably should donate some of your time to a worthy cause and see a different chapter....



Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

I'm curious why you have time to jack around on Rokslide telling everyone else what they should do and think instead of protecting your community. During times of disaster the news is replete with accounts of untrained, ordinary citizens performing swift water rescues, pulling people from burning buildings, or digging people out of unstable rubble.

Your neighbors are in peril and you're manning the internet, telling us how mad you are and calling names. I've seen men mortally wounded, who knew it, less histrionic than you. Instead of looking for sympathy on the internet, pick up a shovel and help fix it.

 

[Glendon Mullins]

alright, had about enough of this thread, going nowhere and doesn't add to the overall mission of Rokslide, closing it now