If You're Wanting to Come Hunt in Montana.....

[Deadfall]

This is mostly false.

The true part is there were more ranches/farms that would let you hunt with a handshake. It wasn’t exactly reliable access either.

However, outfitters without subsidized tags were busy and successful enough to lease much of that once-open land since then, and exclude DIY hunters.

Thankfully, the Block Management Program expanded greatly, improving access to private land over much of the state, including many blocks of public that previously had no access.

This outfitter welfare will incentivize BMA participators to leave Block Management and enter into private leases, leaving out DIYers resident and non-resident alike.

Everyone around helena would disagree with access. Atleast everyone I know.

Some access points have been opened for sure. However, Far more have closed. Not just around helena. Not outfitter caused. Out of state buying/leasing ground. Driving prices out of sight.

Not false. Not opinion.

Yes some outfitters lease up land no denying that. Far more out of state folks lease/ buy it.

Hunting been headed to privatization for along time now. Thinking outfitters are the cause is rubbish!

 

[fatlander]

Everyone around helena would disagree with access. Atleast everyone I know.

Some access points have been opened for sure. However, Far more have closed. Not just around helena. Not outfitter caused. Out of state buying/leasing ground. Driving prices out of sight.

Not false. Not opinion.

Yes some outfitters lease up land no denying that. Far more out of state folks lease/ buy it.

Hunting been headed to privatization for along time now. Thinking outfitters are the cause is rubbish!

They may not be the cause, but swinging their legislative clout for 60% of the tags, then “settling” for 39%, is going to be one of the final nails in the coffin.

Furthermore, even if they weren’t the cause of lost access, how is this bill going to make that any better for anyone? Or maybe a better question would be, in what ways is this bill going to make it worse?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Deadfall]

They may not be the cause, but swinging their legislative clout for 60% of the tags, then “settling” for 39%, is going to be one of the final nails in the coffin.

Furthermore, even if they weren’t the cause of lost access, how is this bill going to make that any better for anyone? Or maybe a better question would be, in what ways is this bill going to make it worse?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They laid out tge pros and cons decently well

 

[Matt Cashell]

Hunting been headed to privatization for along time now. Thinking outfitters are the cause is rubbish!

This bill is the definition of privatization of wildlife. Private businesses are given public licenses. Period.

I am not against outfitters. I have great respect for many. If they provide a good service at a good price, they will do good business.

 

[TheCougar]

X3 Thanks Randy.

Side note: I don't know that I'll ever be in the market to book a guided hunt in Mt or WY, but if I was the 1st question I'd ask the outfitter was if they where a member of WYOGA/MOGA it's a complete non starter in my book. I've felt this way for awhile and this latest by simply reinforces it

You and me both. I’m really trying hard to not lump outfitters all into one boat, but WYOGA and MOGA have pretty much ensured that I’ll never go on a guided hunt with any outfitter that is a member. I know there are good guides and outfitters out there, but lately I’ve really been turned off by pretty much everything I see in their industry.

 

[25orSo]

This is sad to read.

I was a Montana resident at the time this issue was put on the ballot.

I was a new resident at the time. I did a lot of reading and a good bit of research before I decided how to vote.

Now it seems it really doesn't matter, big money is gonna do what they want.

All I can say is I am glad I am old, have had a good life and got to enjoy myself. Dying doesn't look so bad now. I feel for the ones that have to live with crap like this.

 

[wind gypsy]

I'm through all but the last 15 minutes of the Podcast. My take (biased as it may be): It seems Randy put a lot of effort into keeping things civil and maintaining intellectual honesty and didn't call out some of Mac's talking points that would have been a direct attack on Mac's integrity or taken the podcast down a rabbit hole. Mac did a great job presenting his side but anyone who has paid attention can tell the intellectual honesty isn't there consistently. His effort to make purchasing preference points seem like a financial burden unless you're the smart/rich type was beyond laughable when compared to paying for an outfitter + $200 (= to 4 years of PP) for the outfitter set aside tags.

X3 Thanks Randy.

Side note: I don't know that I'll ever be in the market to book a guided hunt in Mt or WY, but if I was the 1st question I'd ask the outfitter was if they where a member of WYOGA/MOGA it's a complete non starter in my book. I've felt this way for awhile and this latest by simply reinforces it.

Never hired an outfitter for anything but dall sheep but I've been thinking about a eastern MT private land Elk hunt as I see it as a tag i can get in the short term that has potential for bulls larger than I've encountered in the majority of my easy to draw hunts to date. That and it still feels more like a "hunt" than some of the more expensive, general area, private ranch hunts. Reached out to an outfitter before 143 was introduced and we discussed talking details mid Feb. Definitely going to ask about their take on this whole deal before putting $ down.

I've been asked by my employer to write to politicians about legislation that supported our industry. I damn sure didn't write to support anything I didn't feel was "right" or in the best interest for the most people. I wouldn't blame an outfitter for using set aside tags if this thing passes but don't think i could support an outfitter that was active in lobbying or pushing for this BS.

 

[Deadfall]

Letter: Cabela’s land sales hurting public access

Well, it hasn’t taken long for the World’s Foremost Outfitter of hunting, fishing, and outdoor gear, Cabela’s, to jump on the land purchasing bandwagon for the sake of making even

mtstandard.com

 

[Deadfall]

700,000 acres in montana is owned by other countries..that was in 2018. How much more is owned by wealthy non resident private citizens? Outfitters ate the problem? Hmmmm...

 

[BRTreedogs]

700,000 acres in montana is owned by other countries..that was in 2018. How much more is owned by wealthy non resident private citizens? Outfitters ate the problem? Hmmmm...

I agree
Let's get rid of other countries

 

[Deadfall]

I agree
Let's get rid of other countries

Without even thinking about it I know of 2 out of state landowners who between them own a million. No hunting, no permits, no outfitting

 

[wind gypsy]

700,000 acres in montana is owned by other countries..that was in 2018. How much more is owned by wealthy non resident private citizens? Outfitters ate the problem? Hmmmm...

Of course nearly nothing in this world is simply one way or the other without many other contributing factors.

What does this have to do with the fact that gifting the outfitting industry with a big chunk of the public resource is likely to increase their ability or desire to lease more acres that might have otherwise been available in BLOCK management or other?

My understanding is that this bill was largely pushed for by wealthy non-resident land owners.. so to your point, it is serving their interests.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Without even thinking about it I know of 2 out of state landowners who between them own a million. No hunting, no permits, no outfitting

Haha well I can't let my true feelings on other countries out.

But yes any reduction to tags is a huge problem for me, I don't care why, how or by who. I just want to hunt. I don't have kids so I don't really care about the next generation.
I only care about how many Elk my friends and I can dead in our life.
I went on a couple guided type things. A bear but and I helped my bobcat guide buddy a couple days and F all that guide and outfitter stuff its just not for me.
Maybe if I had the big money for real adventures but I don't.

 

[Deadfall]

Of course nearly nothing in this world is simply one way or the other without many other contributing factors.

What does this have to do with the fact that gifting the outfitting industry with a big chunk of the public resource is likely to increase their ability or desire to lease more acres that might have otherwise been available in BLOCK management or other?

My understanding is that this bill was largely pushed for by wealthy non-resident land owners.. so to your point, it is serving their interest over the resident hunter's.

It was pushed by local outfitters who are associated with moga. I'm not a Monahan by any stretch of the imagination.

My point is We are fighting rabbits while lions are eating us.

While all these youtube podcast things are good and well, they are distracting from real issues. Issues that need all the energy being spent on a molecule instead of repairing damage to the appendage.

Which is all mute since I believe gangrene has already set in.

God bless randy for what he does. The problem is us as a community....

Wether we have outfitter tags or not doesn't matter. It just gives one more example of internal divide and fighting. Which is what "they" want.

 

[wind gypsy]

It was pushed by local outfitters who are associated with moga. I'm not a Monahan by any stretch of the imagination.

My point is We are fighting rabbits while lions are eating us.

While all these youtube podcast things are good and well, they are distracting from real issues. Issues that need all the energy being spent on a molecule instead of repairing damage to the appendage.

Which is all mute since I believe gangrene has already set in.

God bless randy for what he does. The problem is us as a community....

Wether we have outfitter tags or not doesn't matter. It just gives one more example of internal divide and fighting. Which is what "they" want.

The North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and it's record is about the most defensible position we have against anti-hunters. Turning wildlife management into a function of economics prioritizing the wealthy over the average citizen sure as hell doesn't portray hunting favorably to the 97% of people who are not hunters.

I'd prefer to fight those that want to end hunting with a defensible position beyond - "but I paid $7k into the MT economy and $700 to FWP for a tag to shoot that buck for my wall".

I'll voice my opinion loudly against anti hunters but I wont turn a blind eye to shitcanning the North American Model in favor of politicians managing wildlife for their donors.

Look at Europe and how anti hunting the public is there. It's easy to see why when it's just the rich shooting animals owned by land owners..

 

[brocksw]

The North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and it's record is about the most defensible position we have against anti-hunters. Turning wildlife management into a function of economics prioritizing the wealthy over the average citizen sure as hell doesn't portray hunting favorably to the 97% of people who are not hunters.

I'd prefer to fight those that want to end hunting with a defensible position beyond - "but I paid $7k into the MT economy and $700 to FWP for a tag to shoot that buck for my wall".

I'll voice my opinion loudly against anti hunters but I wont turn a blind eye to shitcanning the North American Model in favor of politicians managing wildlife for their donors.

Look at Europe and how anti hunting the public is there. It's easy to see why when it's just the rich shooting animals owned by land owners..

The euro model is just 143 on steroids. You can't hunt at all(there might some rare exceptions) unless you pay private land fees and hunting club/outfitter fees. It's hunting for the wealthy. 143 does more to bring MT closer to that than it does it prevent it.

 

[Matt Cashell]

Wether we have outfitter tags or not doesn't matter.

It absolutely matters.

 

[BBob]

It absolutely matters.

Totally agree. How can it not matter? Sure it's one piece of the puzzle but in my world the impact outfitter tags had on my elk hunting is very high (if not at the top) on the list of negatives. The situation in NM years ago completely changed the game practically overnight for the worse for the common DIY hunter.

 

[204guy]

If outfitters want everyone to unite and fight a common enemy, they should probably stop attacking the common diy hunter. Pretty sure I could get my 5 year old to understand that, the 3 year old I'm not sure.

 

[Randy Newberg]

If outfitters want everyone to unite and fight a common enemy, they should probably stop attacking the common diy hunter. Pretty sure I could get my 5 year old to understand that, the 3 year old I'm not sure.

That is the core problem with bills like this. No input from hunters. Pit one group against the other, then claim we must quit fighting and stand together. A terrible outcome, no matter what happens.

I can't tell you how much pressure all of you have helped bring to this issue. Not just this bill, but the realization that future bills are going to receive the same push back, no matter who introduces them. This digital campaign is not something they were ready for. Right now, on the Montana Senate floor, some of the leadership is asking "How the hell did this bill get here."

A big push is being made this week to kill this bill on the Senate floor. And if so, send a message to drop all the other stupid bills that pit hunters against hunters or bills that mess with public access and hunting opportunity.

Appreciate all of you who have taken the time to email, call, or otherwise bring pressure. You may not see it, but you are making a difference.