If You're Wanting to Come Hunt in Montana.....

[prm]

If a Hunter wants or needs an outfitter, great! Hire one! But it should not be mandated.

How much does it cost per Hunter for an outfitter for a week elk hunt? Then how much if that Hunter brings along a second Hunter? My neighbor pays ~$10k for himself. Is that a reasonable average? If not, then what?

 

[prm]

All hunting is optional. Period..

As mentioned, not optional in our current game model. Extra services to support them are in fact optional.

 

[finner]

Nobody who testified in support of this bill should be allowed to call themselves a capitalist anymore. Lot of supposedly rock ribbed conservatives asking for government overreach because the tides of change aren't swinging their way

 

[Deadfall]

Nobody who testified in support of this bill should be allowed to call themselves a capitalist anymore. Lot of supposedly rock ribbed conservatives asking for government overreach because the tides of change aren't swinging their way

Mmmm. Montana has had outfitter tags historically. Until 10 yrs ago. Ish..even with guaranteed tags theres no guarantee what outfitter sees the business. Still have competition. Which is capitalisitic.

 

[prm]

Mandating hunters use a service they neither need, nor want, is not capitalistic.

I‘m in my 50s now and the last thing I want is to ride someone else’s horses, use their camp, and hang out with some young outfitter kid while I’m in the mountains. And then pay some outfitter thousands of dollars for the annoyance. No thanks.

 

[finner]

Mmmm. Montana has had outfitter tags historically. Until 10 yrs ago. Ish..even with guaranteed tags theres no guarantee what outfitter sees the business. Still have competition. Which is capitalisitic.

Huh. You think MT voters maybe got rid of them because they gave one segment of the population an unfair advantage? I.e. reducing competition? Call state-sponsored industry what it is

 

[prm]

Still waiting to hear what an outfitter costs for 7 days of elk hunting in MT. And then what bringing a second Hunter costs. Always good to make decisions, or make policy, with facts and consideration for the implications.

 

[Deadfall]

Huh. You think MT voters maybe got rid of them because they gave one segment of the population an unfair advantage? I.e. reducing competition? Call state-sponsored industry what it

Huh. You think MT voters maybe got rid of them because they gave one segment of the population an unfair advantage? I.e. reducing competition? Call state-sponsored industry what it is

That was part of the reasoning back then. Other part was everyone blaming outfitters for leasing up land, which limited access and hurt private hunter opportunities/ effecting success rates.
Which we all now know to be false. In tge last 10 years success rates didn't climb, access has steadily shrunk. Lands still being bought by out of state folks who don't live here and accesses being shut off.

It was a ill informed Bill based off of emotion not facts.

Now this bill is an attempt to right the ship. Granted the bill needs some work. 60 percent is nonsense. They should also up the NR tag numbers. IMO.

 

[Deadfall]

Still waiting to hear what an outfitter costs for 7 days of elk hunting in MT. And then what bringing a second Hunter costs. Always good to make decisions, or make policy, with facts and consideration for the implications.

Depends on the outfit and what type of hunt.

 

[finner]

That was part of the reasoning back then. Other part was everyone blaming outfitters for leasing up land, which limited access and hurt private hunter opportunities/ effecting success rates.
Which we all now know to be false. In tge last 10 years success rates didn't climb, access has steadily shrunk. Lands still being bought by out of state folks who don't live here and accesses being shut off.

It was a ill informed Bill based off of emotion not facts.

Now this bill is an attempt to right the ship. Granted the bill needs some work. 60 percent is nonsense. They should also up the NR tag numbers. IMO.

Yep. Outfitters are too big to fail.

And yeah, let's bump those NR numbers up. 17k is rookie numbers. 2-3 times that and we'd be sitting peachy. The resource can sustain a lot more than what we're throwing at it right now.

 

[prm]

So give examples. I stated 7 day Mt elk. What would it cost a Hunter in the 60% NR to go hunt the backcountry for elk?

 

[Deadfall]

Still waiting to hear what an outfitter costs for 7 days of elk hunting in MT. And then what bringing a second Hunter costs. Always good to make decisions, or make policy, with facts and consideration for the implications.

I never guided private land so I can't speak to that. I never hunted private land. My experience is completely public land. Both as a diy and guide. Public land guided deer/elk hunt going to run about 5g plus tag and travel. Thats all inclusive. Outfit I worked for provide some extras. He puts up a superb camp and is extremely flexible and wiling to please.
Thats as far as I'll comment on someone else's business.

Want more information. Send a pm and ill give you name of joint. Its first rate and you can ask them questions directly. They are super busy even this time of year, if they don't answer, they will call you back

 

[Deadfall]

Yep. Outfitters are too big to fail.

And yeah, let's bump those NR numbers up. 17k is rookie numbers. 2-3 times that and we'd be sitting peachy. The resource can sustain a lot more than what we're throwing at it right now.

Finally someone gets me...

 

[IdahoHntr]

I cant see how this will not benefit residents. The whole BMA thing is bogus. Outfitters are not all of a sudden going to be rich and able to lease up large swaths of land. Outfitting does not make a man rich! Less out of state plates is fine with me.

This could have already been addressed, but how does this result in less out of state plates? Any of the 60% not used by outfitters go back to the public. All the tags will sell out. This just changes how many hunters are hunting with an outfitter and setting up a welfare program for the outfitters to guarantee clients. In fact outfitters typically have much higher success rates than the DIY guy, so if anything this would keep the amount of out of state plates the exact same and increase the amount of animals being killed by those non-residents. How is that good for Montana residents?

Unless, of course, all these outfitters are hunting private land that residents typically don't have access to.. But then with the increased outfitter quota, the outfitters will need more private land to hunt, and which properties do you think would be the easiest pickins for them? You guessed it, BMA. Either way, there is no way this works good for residents. Not to mention the precedent it sets to all the other western states you are a non-resident in.

 

[Flyjunky]

No one said get rid of them, at least I don't think that. However, they shouldn't have any advantage over the next guy to draw a license. Use an outfitter all you want, but don't ask for special treatment because you have the cash to do so.

Exactly!

Unless we want to go down the path of "he who has the most money gets a tag".

 

[wind gypsy]

If a Hunter wants or needs an outfitter, great! Hire one! But it should not be mandated.

How much does it cost per Hunter for an outfitter for a week elk hunt? Then how much if that Hunter brings along a second Hunter? My neighbor pays ~$10k for himself. Is that a reasonable average? If not, then what?

I'd guess that average for elk is 6ish for public and 8ish for private but can climb quite a bit for the top of the chain private hunts. With tag and fuel, etc, your neighbor's $10k sounds about right.

 

[Erict]

..and IF this goes through as written, outfitters/guides would be free as a group to raise prices and claim it is because of increased demand and steady supply.

 

[wind gypsy]

That was part of the reasoning back then. Other part was everyone blaming outfitters for leasing up land, which limited access and hurt private hunter opportunities/ effecting success rates.
Which we all now know to be false. In tge last 10 years success rates didn't climb, access has steadily shrunk. Lands still being bought by out of state folks who don't live here and accesses being shut off.

How do you know it wouldn't be worse if outfitters had been guaranteed tags the last 10 years? Seems logical to think it would be. Of course private access isn't better now than it was then, look at the difference in demand to hunt out west. I'm curious if there is a spot in the entire country where private hunting access isn't worse than it was 10 years ago and most of the country outside the west is complaining of DECREASED license sales.

You're comparing numbers from a decade ago when a NR could hunt general elk in WY EVERY YEAR and could buy them over the counter in MT. If nothing changed a NR starting this year very well might not draw a general elk tag until the 3rd year applying. It might take 5 years in Wyoming.

 

[Deadfall]

How do you know it wouldn't be worse if outfitters had been guaranteed tags the last 10 years? Seems logical to think it would be. Of course private access isn't better now than it was then, look at the difference in demand to hunt out west. I'm curious if there is a spot in the entire country where private hunting access isn't worse than it was 10 years ago and most of the country outside the west is complaining of DECREASED license sales.

You're comparing numbers from a decade ago when a NR could hunt general elk in WY EVERY YEAR and could buy them over the counter in MT. If nothing changed a NR starting this year very well might not draw a general elk tag until the 3rd year applying. It might take 5 years in Wyoming.

I dont know that. While thinking about it,I really don't know much of anything. Just saying maybe outfitters aren't the devil they portrayed to be.
All good things die from the inside. How strong would our community be if we could unify. Seems like at some point just about every group in hunting community takes a turn in barrel by other group or groups.

All joking and nonsense aside, my real question is how do we come together. Seems everyone is out for themselves.

Guess if the answer is, we can't band together or that won't ever happen. Well then none of this matters cause we doomed anyway.

My thought is, there should be some middle ground somewhere. How do we find it.

I get it, everyone hates outfitters. I used to be in that group as well. Until I seen the other side.

I understand noone likes change, especially me. If its going to happen, which change always does, we might as well band together and find some common ground. This line in the sand stuff dont work.

The privatization of hunting is coming and coming fast. We must work together....all groups.

 

[hobbes]

DIY guys want equal opportunity at licenses. Outfitters asking for this want guaranteed licenses and the hell with the DIY guys. Seems to me the outfitters are the ones doing the taking and trying to paint the bill as a vase of roses for everyone when it's really a turd.

I think that's it for me on commenting on this subject. I've sent my emails and will send another round if it makes it to the floor.