If You're Wanting to Come Hunt in Montana.....

[BRTreedogs]

Maybe I do underestimate NR impact. One thing for sure, diy hunters totally and completely underestimate outfitter impact.

Guy I worked for was over a grand a week just in bread and meat, both bought from montana grown. 80 percent of clients spend atleast one night in hotel.
The fees he pays, just for his little business make ya shake your head. Compound that with all the others.

Personally I dont see why everyone can't compromise on this deal.

Seems everyone always wants it ALL and screw everyone else.

Sounds to like they are going to go retool the numbers and talk about it again. How this process is supposed to work.

Don't sound un fair to me. Take the last 3yrs or 5 yrs average for outfitter numbers. Theres the guaranteed tag quota. Everything over that goes to draw.
Increase NR draw numbers which is in the bill.

Honestly sounds like a win win.

Everyone acts like this bill is final. This was just the rough draft. Which is why there is open comment, a couple hearings, amendments, some more discussion and 2 or 3 votes.

Sounds to me like the process is actually freaking working for once.

Seems like everyone reads 2 sentences goes red and turns off, draws a line in the sand.

What if everyone read the dang bill and said this dont sound very fair. Maybe we could subtract this, add that and give everyone some of what they want.
Need more problem solving solutionists is what we need.

So I'm glad we have this process. Better then a stinking ballot initiative that is either pass or fail and someone getting screwed.

Atleast this has a chance of making things better for everyone.

Noone even thought of that. Instead of voicing staunch opposition. Why not suggest a couple changes.

We can't compromise because anyone that draws a tag can go with an outfitter if they please.
But if you draw an Outfitter tag you have to. That's just extortion.
And if being an outfitter is so hard they could go get real jobs.

 

[Two Roads]

Anyone picking up on how DIY is now a label, you know....”those guys”. Seriously?

 

[Racer00]

With so much of Montana's elk range over population objectives, has any one thought about adding additional non-resident licenses and maybe target those licenses toward outfitters? I am not for this bill in any way, as a long time NR hunter. Montana keeps making the ability to hunt it's land more and more difficult.
Last year the MOGA pushed thru a bill that effectively eliminated non resident DIY lion hound hunters hurting a long family tradition for us. And yet the local state biologist was begging us to take more females to help with an overpopulation of lions. Obviously the passing of that bill wasn't science based.
And the price we pay for youth NR license is nothing short of ridiculous, leaving me to believe they care nothing for the next generation of hunters. This is just one more step in making hunting an elitist activity instead of a heritage sport.
I have no issue with guides making a good living and they are a long time tradition in our western hunting scene. But maybe they are overpopulated and need to make adjustments in their business model.
I am really worried that this will not end well for any of us.

 

[Deadfall]

Give me a break. Any business owner has to plan in advance, boo hoo. I had over a dozen high paying clients lined up for this past year, but covid ended those and I had to scramble, reschedule, find new clients, etc. Thats called being in business.

You still didn't answer my question, what are outfitters giving up in this "compromise" as you state it. You stated they are giving up all clients drawing...well, I'm giving up all the clients that don't use my business either. Basically what they want is for anyone who wants to book with them to have a guaranteed tag, at the expense of a NR Diy hunter....seems only one group is giving up anything, can't look at it any other way, sorry.

Setting aside tags for outfitters isn't a handout? How so? Seems like it's getting the laws changed to guarantee business to me, I don't know how you can even debate that.

More revenue to the state? By who's numbers, the numbers that are cherry picked by their "study". Other than paying for an outfitter please tell me who honestly spends more money in local businesses, a diy or guided hunter? Do guided hunters make any scouting trips to the state they are wanting to hunt with an outfitter? Do they shop for groceries, beer, dinner at restaurants, get gas multiple times?

Diy hunters plan just as much, maybe even more since they don't know where to camp, conditions, where hunters are, logistics, other hunters, etc...all those variable pretty much set for an outfitter.

You say they aren't looking for handouts and then a sentence later you say some of them are.....I will state this again, asking for guaranteed clients to stabilize a business is asking for a handout.

I'll leave it there.

Good luck in your business this year, I hope you do

You don't know anything about me.

I've been a Diy'er all my life and don't plan to change that.

Ok, how about this. Let's do the draw early so guides know about tags. That's it, compromise like you suggest. No additional guaranteed tags, get the draw done early so not only do guides/clients know but I'd appreciate that as well.

It will make my choices in Nevada, Wyoming, Idaho, and Oregon easier to plan. Win/Win for everyone.

Sounds ok to me

 

[Deadfall]

You don't know anything about me.

I've been a Diy'er all my life and don't plan to change that.

Ok, how about this. Let's do the draw early so guides know about tags. That's it, compromise like you suggest. No additional guaranteed tags, get the draw done early so not only do guides/clients know but I'd appreciate that as well.

It will make my choices in Nevada, Wyoming, Idaho, and Oregon easier to plan. Win/Win for everyone.

Dang sure an idea worth floating.
Your right, I don't know anything about you. Sorry if I offended.
Talked to my outfitter buddy last night. Fun to debate this stuff, at end of day its all BS. His words.
Guess there is no point to any of this. Oh well...if we don't start working together as sportsmen, we all going to be up the creek sooner or later. Seems every group is out for their best interest and don't care who gets hit along the way. Thats not directed at you just my thoughts in general.

FYI, ill be emailing that suggestion to Mr. Ellsworth along with other solution type suggestions I've been sending.
Not that anyone at that level cares what some nimcompoop from nowhere montana has to say.
If lots of folks would send ideas that might make a difference. Strength in numbers thing. As long as we all divided and can't talk things out, we going to continue shooting ourselves in foot.

 

[Deadfall]

With so much of Montana's elk range over population objectives, has any one thought about adding additional non-resident licenses and maybe target those licenses toward outfitters? I am not for this bill in any way, as a long time NR hunter. Montana keeps making the ability to hunt it's land more and more difficult.
Last year the MOGA pushed thru a bill that effectively eliminated non resident DIY lion hound hunters hurting a long family tradition for us. And yet the local state biologist was begging us to take more females to help with an overpopulation of lions. Obviously the passing of that bill wasn't science based.
And the price we pay for youth NR license is nothing short of ridiculous, leaving me to believe they care nothing for the next generation of hunters. This is just one more step in making hunting an elitist activity instead of a heritage sport.
I have no issue with guides making a good living and they are a long time tradition in our western hunting scene. But maybe they are overpopulated and need to make adjustments in their business model.
I am really worried that this will not end well for any of us.

MOGA is a big problem in general. That outfit definitely needs retooling. Their egos are crazy big. Outfitters I know are even disgusted with them. Guess they aren't any different from other organizations these days.

Someone suggested making draw earlier. That seems like a good idea, atleast on surface. One worth exploring anyway.

Locals are doing as much to screw up lion hunting as anything. Those guys fight nonstop over tracks. Some groups kill everything they run. Kill a cat in one area and report it from another.
Trappers do same thing with bobcats.
No idea what solution is to that. Its something I've spent alot of time thinking on. Tough to change ethics though.

 

[prm]

Outfitters are an optional service. Nothing more. Period. They are not required for the management of game or distribution of licenses. If the state(s) want to conduct draws earlier so all hunters can make decisions earlier, and that happens to help outfitters that’s reasonable.

 

[Deadfall]

All hunting is optional. Period..

 

[Deadfall]

NR diy hunters are optional. Nothing more..not needed for management. If they want to continue having draws and letting NR diy come hunt in montana, as long ad it doesn't effect local operations.

 

[dreamingbig]

All hunting is optional. Period..

Not under the North American conservation model. Hunting is required and has driven the recovery in game populations. #factchecked


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[hobbes]

NR diy hunters are optional. Nothing more..not needed for management. If they want to continue having draws and letting NR diy come hunt in montana, as long ad it doesn't effect local operations.

Considering the revenue that we get from NRs, NRs are not optional for game management.

 

[wind gypsy]

More revenue to the state? By who's numbers, the numbers that are cherry picked by their "study". Other than paying for an outfitter please tell me who honestly spends more money in local businesses, a diy or guided hunter? Do guided hunters make any scouting trips to the state they are wanting to hunt with an outfitter? Do they shop for groceries, beer, dinner at restaurants, get gas multiple times?

IMO it's fair to assume the DIY NR spends more per tag with businesses besides the outfitter. That said, there is no chance in hell that difference makes up for the total $ spent in MT when you factor in what an outfitted hunter pays the outfitter. What do deer hunts go for, $4-7k? I know some outfitted elk hunts go for up to $15k. There is no way DIY hunters are making up that gap and in reality they probably be lucky to spend 1/3 per hunt what outfitted hunters do. Outfitting fees are $ spent in MT and a lot of that income covers expenses in MT. Our government picks winners/losers with legislation and regulation in almost all facets of life. This bill picks the outfitters and those businesses the outfitters use as the winners over the typical businesses that NR DIY hunter uses.

The aspects of this I really dislike (besides my selfish desire for easy to draw NR tags):
- It's another step towards turning hunting into a rich mans game
- It seems to be a MOGA written bill (as evidenced by the sponsors stumbling over details during the hearing) and history does not show MOGA giving a crap about wildlife management or the common hunter if it does not benefit MOGA financially. To the contrary. When quality opportunity for the common man decreases, it benefits MOGA.
- It makes the MT draw system less appealing and will likely result in less revenue from application and point buying for FWP than there would be with equal opportunity to tags for all hunters.

 

[Scooter90254]

I think some of you are missing the point. Tags are getting harder and harder to draw. If I was a local guide with good clientele I would be concerned. Instead of my customers coming every 2 years they have to push back to every 3 or 4 years that is a big deal. Not to mention its getting worse every year.

That's why this stuff us coming about. That being said % seems a bit ridiculous. They are probably hoping for more like 25% as a compromise.

 

[Flyjunky]

IMO it's fair to assume the DIY NR spends more per tag with businesses besides the outfitter. That said, there is no chance in hell that difference makes up for the total $ spent in MT when you factor in what an outfitted hunter pays the outfitter. What do deer hunts go for, $4-7k? I know some outfitted elk hunts go for up to $15k. There is no way DIY hunters are making up that gap and in reality they probably be lucky to spend 1/3 per hunt what outfitted hunters do. Outfitting fees are $ spent in MT and a lot of that income covers expenses in MT. Our government picks winners/losers with legislation and regulation in almost all facets of life. This bill picks the outfitters and those businesses the outfitters use as the winners over the typical businesses that NR DIY hunter uses.

The aspects of this I really dislike (besides my selfish desire for easy to draw NR tags):
- It's another step towards turning hunting into a rich mans game
- It seems to be a MOGA written bill (as evidenced by the sponsors stumbling over details during the hearing) and history does not show MOGA giving a crap about wildlife management or the common hunter if it does not benefit MOGA financially. To the contrary. When quality opportunity for the common man decreases, it benefits MOGA.
- It makes the MT draw system less appealing and will likely result in less revenue from application and point buying for FWP than there would be with equal opportunity to tags for all hunters.

I get that as a total guided hunters spend more because of the money paid outfitters, agreed. But, during the hearing the statement was made that more money was spent at the "Main Street" businesses....not as a total amount, hence my comment about being at the lodge/backcountry camp.

Deadfall,
NR Diy hunters are not optional, as stated as much by MOGA at the hearing. According to them it brings in a huge amount of money and supports many businesses, not to mention a large amount of dollars for the game management. I doubt many people in Montana would want to NR hunting curtailed.

 

[fatlander]

I think some of you are missing the point. Tags are getting harder and harder to draw. If I was a local guide with good clientele I would be concerned. Instead of my customers coming every 2 years they have to push back to every 3 or 4 years that is a big deal. Not to mention its getting worse every year.

That's why this stuff us coming about. That being said % seems a bit ridiculous. They are probably hoping for more like 25% as a compromise.

This isn’t going to fix that problem. Those tags are going to continue to get harder to draw, and guess who’s going to be back crying again in 10 years? Who do you think is going to get the shaft again?

This entire bill, and the state of hunting as a whole, is indicative of the greater problems in our country right now. The amount of elk in Montana, and therefore the amount of tags are viewed as a number that can’t grow. So instead of working to have the landscape support more animals, which would equate to more tags for everyone; we’re going to argue over the percentage of access to the numbers we currently have.

That’s basically the difference of socialism and capitalism. Socialism wants to break the pie up right now, and take from those with bigger pieces to give to those with smaller pieces. Capitalism wants to make the pie bigger...

We’re going to run out of pie.


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[wind gypsy]

I’m not sure we want to play the socialism/capitalism game with how we want game managed. The Utah model would seem to lean more towards capitalism and MT towards socialism.

 

[Deadfall]

I think some of you are missing the point. Tags are getting harder and harder to draw. If I was a local guide with good clientele I would be concerned. Instead of my customers coming every 2 years they have to push back to every 3 or 4 years that is a big deal. Not to mention its getting worse every year.

That's why this stuff us coming about. That being said % seems a bit ridiculous. They are probably hoping for more like 25% as a compromise.

Good luck using reason here. Might as well hit yourself in head with hammer...lol

 

[Deadfall]

I get that as a total guided hunters spend more because of the money paid outfitters, agreed. But, during the hearing the statement was made that more money was spent at the "Main Street" businesses....not as a total amount, hence my comment about being at the lodge/backcountry camp.

Deadfall,
NR Diy hunters are not optional, as stated as much by MOGA at the hearing. According to them it brings in a huge amount of money and supports many businesses, not to mention a large amount of dollars for the game management. I doubt many people in Montana would want to NR hunting curtailed.

Wasn't my point. I agree with this. NR hunters are a essential part. So are resident hunters. So are outfitters. Takes lots of spokes for the wheel to turn with stability. Saying one part of wheel is optional, is naive. Saying putcotters are optional us just as ridiculous as saying NR are optional

Outfitter I used to work for also has a lodge. Open to public. Just the lodge one little part of one little cog, takes several thousand a month to operate. Thats all going to state and federal agencies.

 

[Deadfall]

So...

40 percent of NR hunters use outfitter.
Conservatively, 70 percent of those hunters wouldn't be able to come out west and hunt elk, or other big game, if not for a outfitter. From my decade of guiding I would say 90 percent. Theres alot of outfits I havent been around so I dont know their client base.

Where would that leave those NR hunters. Or should they be excluded because they don't posses the same skill set as a "diy" guy? If that's the case then we better get rid of disabled hunters as well. While we at it how about old guys that hunt from road or close to it?

 

[hobbes]

No one said get rid of them, at least I don't think that. However, they shouldn't have any advantage over the next guy to draw a license. Use an outfitter all you want, but don't ask for special treatment because you have the cash to do so.