Ideas for Building New Arrows

[OR Archer]

27 inch draw huh? Do you happen to really like working out, and have a YouTube channel about elk hunting?

No I’m not Cam. Friends with him and I’ve done a ton of his bow work. You’ll even see me in a few of his videos in the past.

 

[JjamesIII]

Why buy .003's, which is what I assume you are saying, just to go thru and cull them?


With fixed heads it's always in your benefit to start with as straight of a shaft as possible.



Op you have a solid setup as it is, heavy, but solid.

I'd go lighter, I have to think you are on the border of 230fps and I'd prefer to be faster so you get some leeway on yardage. Continue to use a quality head.

Even gold tips .001” arrows aren’t as straight as they should be. Especially after they moved production to Mexico. I get about two-three more shafts that spin true but I feel that the price increase isn’t worth it compared to the Xt hunters.

I find Easton shafts to hold tolerances more inline with what is advertised. I don’t know why gold tip and some other manufacturers don’t get called out by consumers for, what I believe, is false advertising. Hence the reason for spin checking and culling bad shafts. .003” is the width of a human hair if you put a micrometer to it. .001” is imperceptible to the eye.

The reason why I stick with gold tip is their durability is second to none. Easton shafts start straighter, but are more prone to damage and some of the carbon shafts I’ve tested actually hold a memory. I wouldn’t even consider the fmj’s or anything else with a sleeve of aluminum.

 

[Billy Goat]

Even gold tips .001” arrows aren’t as straight as they should be. Especially after they moved production to Mexico. I get about two-three more shafts that spin true but I feel that the price increase isn’t worth it compared to the Xt hunters.

I find Easton shafts to hold tolerances more inline with what is advertised. I don’t know why gold tip and some other manufacturers don’t get called out by consumers for, what I believe, is false advertising. Hence the reason for spin checking and culling bad shafts. .003” is the width of a human hair if you put a micrometer to it. .001” is imperceptible to the eye.

The reason why I stick with gold tip is their durability is second to none. Easton shafts start straighter, but are more prone to damage and some of the carbon shafts I’ve tested actually hold a memory. I wouldn’t even consider the fmj’s or anything else with a sleeve of aluminum.

We have definitely had different experiences.

I have had one shaft out of dozens that wasn't straight. The pros are consistent to +,- .008 on spine (per sorted dozen), and spin to where I can't detect a wobble on the Ram Line.

 

[JjamesIII]

We have definitely had different experiences.

I have had one shaft out of dozens that wasn't straight. The pros are consistent to +,- .008 on spine (per sorted dozen), and spin to where I can't detect a wobble on the Ram Line.

We are talking about two different things, I believe. You are referring to spine- the deflection of the shaft when a force is applied in the middle of a given span.
I am referring to “spin testing” used to check the straightness of the shaft (ama standard is 28” shaft length).
Both are important for accuracy, I personally don’t check spine because I don’t want to invest in a spine tester. I rotate/index my arrows when tuning to achieve the same result, basically.

 

[Billy Goat]

We are talking about two different things, I believe. You are referring to spine- the deflection of the shaft when a force is applied in the middle of a given span.
I am referring to “spin testing” used to check the straightness of the shaft (ama standard is 28” shaft length).
Both are important for accuracy, I personally don’t check spine because I don’t want to invest in a spine tester. I rotate/index my arrows when tuning to achieve the same result, basically.

No, I'm talking both.


My spine tester can also be used to check straightness by more than just sight.

I was just stating that the GT pros I have put on it not only were straight, but are also pretty consistent spine wise.

 

[JjamesIII]

the ram tester has an indicator that only measures a spot in the approximate center of the shaft at the mid point between the two rollers, I believe. You will show less deflection at the mid point compared to checking the full length from end to end. A shaft with .003” +/- straightness, will spin with a .006” eccentric wobble, which is easily seen. The relative center line axis of of the tip in relation to nock end is more important to me than a reading from around the middle of the shaft.

I have a 30” draw, so my shafts are cut long. I see most of the deviation on the ends of the shafts, the mid section is generally pretty straight, in comparison. Myself, and a lot of other guys, will spin and mark the worst end, and cut the shaft from that side. If both ends are the same, set the saw to cut a little from each side. Pro shops generally just start lopping of from the front of the shaft, regardless of which end is less true.

 

[Caleb777]

No, I'm talking both.


My spine tester can also be used to check straightness by more than just sight.

I was just stating that the GT pros I have put on it not only were straight, but are also pretty consistent spine wise.

We always hear people talk about straightness tolerances but I can’t say I often hear numbers thrown out for the deflection of spine in inches. What is considered a little and what is considered a lot? I have a machining background, and .008 seems like a huge number to me, but I have not checked for spine deflection on arrows with a travel indicator. Can you give an example of what you have seen for bad spine?

 

[OR Archer]

We always hear people talk about straightness tolerances but I can’t say I often hear numbers thrown out for the deflection of spine in inches. What is considered a little and what is considered a lot? I have a machining background, and .008 seems like a huge number to me, but I have not checked for spine deflection on arrows with a travel indicator. Can you give an example of what you have seen for bad spine?

That’s not an indication of bad spine as they’re measured differently. Spine is measuring the stiffness of the shaft by placing a 2# weight in the center of two points that are 28” apart(I’m sure they have better ways now but that’s the traditional method). The amount it bends the shaft is the spine rating.
Straightness is how concentric the shaft is along its length. This what you’ll see the dial gauges used for. Most factories use lasers to measure this now.

 

[Caleb777]

That’s not an indication of bad spine as they’re measured differently. Spine is measuring the stiffness of the shaft by placing a 2# weight in the center of two points that are 28” apart(I’m sure they have better ways now but that’s the traditional method). The amount it bends the shaft is the spine rating.
Straightness is how concentric the shaft is along its length. This what you’ll see the dial gauges used for. Most factories use lasers to measure this now.

I understand the difference here. But what I’m not familiar with it what range of deflection between shafts is good or bad. When you say you had .008 difference in spine across a dozen shafts, I have nothing to compare that to. I’m just curious what is considered a bad range across a dozen arrows

 

[Billy Goat]

We always hear people talk about straightness tolerances but I can’t say I often hear numbers thrown out for the deflection of spine in inches. What is considered a little and what is considered a lot? I have a machining background, and .008 seems like a huge number to me, but I have not checked for spine deflection on arrows with a travel indicator. Can you give an example of what you have seen for bad spine?

So when something is spine sorted, to have similar spine within a dozen, everything within 10-12 is pretty damn good in my experience, for carbon. Now, if you are trying to hit an exact spine, that's a different story. A 400 spine might be .375-.440. So say you order a dozen 340's. They might actually range from .324-.338, or .345-.362. That's what is nice about the GT pro's is they put a label with a weight code on it, which seems to somewhat correspond to what the spine of the shafts are. Generally they are pretty close to what the spine is, but they aren't always.


A bad group of shafts? Well they can be .030-.040 apart pretty easily. I haven't seen that lately, but I haven't really checked any lower end shafts for a good while.


.008 would be a lot to me on runout, but keep in mind what we are measuring with spine is just a deflection. Taking a piece of carbon, hanging a weight on it and they all dip to within .010 is pretty good in my eyes.

These carbon shafts are way better than a dozen years ago. It use to be pretty wide variance, seems for the most part all the manufacturers are putting out pretty consistent shafts. At least on their upper end, sorted variety.

 

[Billy Goat]

I think the manufacturers could just as easily break them down more. Like instead of .300, .350, .400 they could be producing .275, .300, .325, .350, .375, .400 etc.

Is that because they didn't find it's actually necessary to offer that wide a range? Meaning .025 isn't that bad? Or is it to simplify supply? Probably some of both. I'd say Easton has spent the most on arrow research and development, they are pretty simple in their recommendations anymore. Compound bows are also pretty tolerant of their spine range anymore too.


Everyone thinks compounds are complicated, trad is simple.

Tune a damn trad bow and arrow.

 

[sndmn11]

Shoot the arrows you have.

 

[Caleb777]

So when something is spine sorted, to have similar spine within a dozen, everything within 10-12 is pretty damn good in my experience, for carbon. Now, if you are trying to hit an exact spine, that's a different story. A 400 spine might be .375-.440. So say you order a dozen 340's. They might actually range from .324-.338, or .345-.362. That's what is nice about the GT pro's is they put a label with a weight code on it, which seems to somewhat correspond to what the spine of the shafts are. Generally they are pretty close to what the spine is, but they aren't always.


A bad group of shafts? Well they can be .030-.040 apart pretty easily. I haven't seen that lately, but I haven't really checked any lower end shafts for a good while.


.008 would be a lot to me on runout, but keep in mind what we are measuring with spine is just a deflection. Taking a piece of carbon, hanging a weight on it and they all dip to within .010 is pretty good in my eyes.

These carbon shafts are way better than a dozen years ago. It use to be pretty wide variance, seems for the most part all the manufacturers are putting out pretty consistent shafts. At least on their upper end, sorted variety.

Thank you! This was what I was curious about!

 

[Caleb777]

I think the manufacturers could just as easily break them down more. Like instead of .300, .350, .400 they could be producing .275, .300, .325, .350, .375, .400 etc.

Is that because they didn't find it's actually necessary to offer that wide a range? Meaning .025 isn't that bad? Or is it to simplify supply? Probably some of both. I'd say Easton has spent the most on arrow research and development, they are pretty simple in their recommendations anymore. Compound bows are also pretty tolerant of their spine range anymore too.


Everyone thinks compounds are complicated, trad is simple.

Tune a damn trad bow and arrow.

Shot trad for 6 years. Totally different animal ..fun…but different

 

[CCooper]

If I were to go with a different arrow than what I’m currently shooting it’d be this exact set up and I’m the same exact specs as you 27/70.

Easton Axis Match 340 cut to 27”
50gr brass insert
Iron Will aluminum collar
100gr head
4”wrap
4 fletched w/ AAE Hybrid 23s
Standard X nock.

This would put you at roughly 460-475 TAO.

Is there any discernible difference to how you achieve front end weight? i.e 50 gr insert and 100 gr head versus 25gr insert 125 gr head - for instance? With a setup shooting for the above target overall weight.

 

[OR Archer]

Is there any discernible difference to how you achieve front end weight? i.e 50 gr insert and 100 gr head versus 25gr insert 125 gr head - for instance? With a setup shooting for the above target overall weight.

Not really. You’ll get to the same point.

 

[Marble]

If he shoots his current arrow of 526 I would put him in the low 240s at 27/70.

I put one through an RX7 and it went 266 with a 520 grain arrow, 30" DL

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[JjamesIII]

We always hear people talk about straightness tolerances but I can’t say I often hear numbers thrown out for the deflection of spine in inches. What is considered a little and what is considered a lot? I have a machining background, and .008 seems like a huge number to me, but I have not checked for spine deflection on arrows with a travel indicator. Can you give an example of what you have seen for bad spine?

Good question- consistency in spine is probably more important than the straightness. The dynamic spine of an arrow and how fast it recovers from the “archers paradox” is definitely a factor. Indexing nocks is really in order to find out where the spine is optimally aligned. You’ll bring a bad arrow shooting 3” off center, right into the rest sometimes just with a quarter twist of the nock.

 

[Billy Goat]

I picked out a 1/2 dozen hunter xt's to use for practice arrows. I want thru 4 dozen and found 6 that spined within the same range as my pros. With field points on they fly exactly the same, with broadheads they won't group as well, like 2.5-3 times the broadhead group at distance. Before I fletch arrows they all get nock tuned.

I think straight arrows are way up the list of things most important for broadhead flight. Nock tuning as well. But I think once you have each arrow reacting the same coming out of the bow (nock tuned) you have a pretty large range of deflection that will work. Not Next spine weaker necessarily, but a large swing of deflection, likely the full range of what you would see in a given spine category.

 

[Button]

I’m getting ready to build a dozen more arrows myself. Undecided on the route I’m going to go as far as which model arrow, 5mm or micro, and inserts. Sooner or later I’m going to up my draw weight, Easton spine chart says I need 260 or 300 spine. The few websites I’ve looked at for various brands/models 300 spine .001 arrows are out of stock