Idaho Unit 29 Fire

[dreamingbig]

This is a sad deal. Really bummed about this one.


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[packgoatguy]

Burning over 18000 acres now, more than 700 fire fighters, only 5% contained, full containment not expected until October, forest service area wide road and closure in effect until Oct 1.

So, I get that generally speaking fires are good for ungulate habitat in the long term, but what effects does the massive increase in human activity have in the short term..., noisy heavy equipment plowing miles of containment lines deep in the backcountry, air dropping chemical retardant on thousands of acres, hundreds of people walking through the woods with chainsaws, etc?? I would expect that there are differences in the effect on wildlife from a full suppression fire like this one, and wilderness fires that are left to burn while being monitored from afar.

 

[stephen_seeks]

Someone's unit catches a fire and suddenly they're wildland firefighters.

Look, these are questions and issues that USFS and BLM have been researching for decades. They work very hard to mitigate fires while also mitigating the long term impact on the landscape and it's inhabitants, but fires and firefighting are not zero-impact.

It'll be ok. The game will return, the flora will regrow. Relax and enjoy checking out some other areas this year.

 

[packgoatguy]

Someone's unit catches a fire and suddenly they're wildland firefighters.

Look, these are questions and issues that USFS and BLM have been researching for decades. They work very hard to mitigate fires while also mitigating the long term impact on the landscape and it's inhabitants, but fires and firefighting are not zero-impact.

It'll be ok. The game will return, the flora will regrow. Relax and enjoy checking out some other areas this year.

Chill out. I'm not anti-fire fighter, or anti-forest service... I appreciate everything they are doing in there to contain this fire!! And I get that this unit is a total loss as far as elk or deer hunting goes this fall. Already looking at backup plans for my kid's hunting options.

However my question still stands, if anyone has any first hand experience or knows of a study related to the short term effects of major fire suppression efforts on wildlife id like to read about it. I've read a fair bit in relation to the "let burn" fires, or areas where the fire moves through quickly enough that human/fire suppression impact is negligible... (it seems that elk especially are adept at just avoiding the immediate danger and then flanking the fire to return shortly after it cools). However I suspect that they likely behave differently when there are huge numbers of people, equipment, massive amounts of noise, and chemicals being introduced to their summer range... do they keep further away from the fire areas? Do the chemicals affect them? Etc. Legitimate questions. If they have been answered elsewhere, just let me know. At this point, its little more than to satisfy curiosity I suppose.

 

[Minute_of_Antelope]

Someone's unit catches a fire and suddenly they're wildland firefighters.

…

It'll be ok. The game will return, the flora will regrow. Relax and enjoy checking out some other areas this year.

Whatever, bro, these are valid questions. Everybody knows stuff will regrow, it’s valid discussing short term impacts.

 

[packgoatguy]

I got ahold of an IDFG biologist from the salmon office today. He doesn't have a crystal ball unfortunately, but he didn't think it wise to be planning any archery hunting trips into 29 this Sept...

He also mentioned during our chat that the fire crews are building a southern containment line up big 8 mile, probably due at least in part to the wide trails that cut up to the ridge there already, makes an easier path for the dozers to follow?? Regardless, if 8 mile is intended as the last stand to the south, it makes sense why they just added it to the closure area this week. That's still quite a few miles from the actual fire, so I'd been curious why they closed that trail system too. But if that's the direction and the eventual outcome of the fire... that will represent nearly 3/4 of the public land area in 29 that is either in the closure area or the burn itself. Not good.

 

[TheTone]

Chill out. I'm not anti-fire fighter, or anti-forest service... I appreciate everything they are doing in there to contain this fire!! And I get that this unit is a total loss as far as elk or deer hunting goes this fall. Already looking at backup plans for my kid's hunting options.

However my question still stands, if anyone has any first hand experience or knows of a study related to the short term effects of major fire suppression efforts on wildlife id like to read about it. I've read a fair bit in relation to the "let burn" fires, or areas where the fire moves through quickly enough that human/fire suppression impact is negligible... (it seems that elk especially are adept at just avoiding the immediate danger and then flanking the fire to return shortly after it cools). However I suspect that they likely behave differently when there are huge numbers of people, equipment, massive amounts of noise, and chemicals being introduced to their summer range... do they keep further away from the fire areas? Do the chemicals affect them? Etc. Legitimate questions. If they have been answered elsewhere, just let me know. At this point, its little more than to satisfy curiosity I suppose.

It wasn’t a fire of this size but one burned through an area I used to hunt 12 or so years ago. Burned basically one big mountain face and a few drainages. It was targeted for full suppression; so heavy equipment cutting lines, air drops, and lots of on the ground work. From talking to the fire crews the elk never left, they were constantly bumping into them while working and you could glass into the closed fire area and see elk. Restrictions lifted the last week of archery season and the elk were still inside the fire perimeter. The hunting was awesome the next year

 

[Minute_of_Antelope]

It wasn’t a fire of this size but one burned through an area I used to hunt 12 or so years ago. Burned basically one big mountain face and a few drainages. It was targeted for full suppression; so heavy equipment cutting lines, air drops, and lots of on the ground work. From talking to the fire crews the elk never left, they were constantly bumping into them while working and you could glass into the closed fire area and see elk. Restrictions lifted the last week of archery season and the elk were still inside the fire perimeter. The hunting was awesome the next year

Inject this positivity straight into my veins plz

 

[NCTrees]

Whatever, bro, these are valid questions. Everybody knows stuff will regrow, it’s valid discussing short term impacts.

I believe retardants are generally considered safe for humans and mammals but can result in fish and amphibian mortality. Reasonably short term impacts can also include recruitment of noxious weeds from equipment, impacts to meadows and grasslands if equipment is used to install fire lines on sod and opening routes for new, sometimes illegal access to OHVs. “Big box” approach can result in excess acres burned. Major fires repeating in same footprints can result in type conversion (forest to chaparral) Fire agencies generally do a good job minimizing impacts but sometimes bad decisions are made due to time sensitivity, lack of local knowledge and many other factors. We’re seeing a slow culture shift in the west with regard of returning controlled fire to the landscape but it’s not happening fast enough. Until we have large scale controlled burning annually throughout the west in fire climax ecosystems, people learn to live with smoke and occasional closures, we’re going to exist in this cycle of continual conflagrations.

 

[packgoatguy]

I dont know what is in the particular retardants used for the Hayden Fire, but when I read statements on the inciweb report like "Helicopters allow for precise retardant placement to minimize impacts to the watershed and its users." I feel that it implies that the retardants used are likely to have some sort of secondary effect that is not ideal for the health of watershed users... including ungulates and humans. A necessary evil it sounds like. Can't fight a fire without it, but i wouldn't want to be drinking out of a stream that was contaminated with it. Again, this appears to be another difference between a relatively localized full suppression fire like this one and fires that are "let burn" in wilderness areas or cover such huge acreages that only a small fraction of the affected area would have to deal with chemical contamination issues after the fact.

 

[ThunderJack49]

Inject this positivity straight into my veins plz

I've fought a few fires in Idaho and have seen this as well. I was on the Pioneer fire in 2016 and saw plenty of elk in and around the fire during my two months that I was there. I was also on a fire in the southern portion of the sawtooths forest, the south hills, just south of Twin Falls and would have elk bugling next to my tent each night for a few weeks. Saw plenty of elk and moose. There were even guys trying to hunt while we were working that we'd bump into.

Helicopters typically only drop water, while airplanes drop retardant. I'm pretty sure the retardant is toxic despite what anyone says, I've seen evidence that it kills fish. They are both very useful in the right applications.

I think generally speaking the aircraft has less of an impact on animals than people imagine. For example, there was a bear attack fatality where I live now, and the consensus among the SAR crews was that the helicopters must have scared the bear far away, as they could not find it with their thermals from the air. This is not consistent with anything I've seen during my fire career. While working in Alaska, I was specifically warned by local firefighters to not assume that a bear will not approach a running water pump out of curiosity.

Usually dozer lines are "rehabbed" to prevent erosion and scarring on the forest. Not always but often so.

Maybe this year's hunting is great, maybe you can find pockets of animals. Maybe you can get around "closures" and have the place all to yourself. Overall I wouldn't stress about what can't be controlled, it's just another learning experience as a hunter.

 

[Minute_of_Antelope]

I've fought a few fires in Idaho and have seen this as well. I was on the Pioneer fire in 2016 and saw plenty of elk in and around the fire during my two months that I was there. I was also on a fire in the southern portion of the sawtooths forest, the south hills, just south of Twin Falls and would have elk bugling next to my tent each night for a few weeks. Saw plenty of elk and moose. There were even guys trying to hunt while we were working that we'd bump into.

Helicopters typically only drop water, while airplanes drop retardant. I'm pretty sure the retardant is toxic despite what anyone says, I've seen evidence that it kills fish. They are both very useful in the right applications.

I think generally speaking the aircraft has less of an impact on animals than people imagine. For example, there was a bear attack fatality where I live now, and the consensus among the SAR crews was that the helicopters must have scared the bear far away, as they could not find it with their thermals from the air. This is not consistent with anything I've seen during my fire career. While working in Alaska, I was specifically warned by local firefighters to not assume that a bear will not approach a running water pump out of curiosity.

Usually dozer lines are "rehabbed" to prevent erosion and scarring on the forest. Not always but often so.

Maybe this year's hunting is great, maybe you can find pockets of animals. Maybe you can get around "closures" and have the place all to yourself. Overall I wouldn't stress about what can't be controlled, it's just another learning experience as a hunter.

Very cool experience and perspective. Thanks man

 

[packgoatguy]

I've fought a few fires in Idaho and have seen this as well. I was on the Pioneer fire in 2016 and saw plenty of elk in and around the fire during my two months that I was there. I was also on a fire in the southern portion of the sawtooths forest, the south hills, just south of Twin Falls and would have elk bugling next to my tent each night for a few weeks. Saw plenty of elk and moose. There were even guys trying to hunt while we were working that we'd bump into.

Helicopters typically only drop water, while airplanes drop retardant. I'm pretty sure the retardant is toxic despite what anyone says, I've seen evidence that it kills fish. They are both very useful in the right applications.

I think generally speaking the aircraft has less of an impact on animals than people imagine. For example, there was a bear attack fatality where I live now, and the consensus among the SAR crews was that the helicopters must have scared the bear far away, as they could not find it with their thermals from the air. This is not consistent with anything I've seen during my fire career. While working in Alaska, I was specifically warned by local firefighters to not assume that a bear will not approach a running water pump out of curiosity.

Usually dozer lines are "rehabbed" to prevent erosion and scarring on the forest. Not always but often so.

Maybe this year's hunting is great, maybe you can find pockets of animals. Maybe you can get around "closures" and have the place all to yourself. Overall I wouldn't stress about what can't be controlled, it's just another learning experience as a hunter.

Good insight. It reminds me that I have seen a similar effect on elk near a logging operation in Island Park. The heavy equipment didn't seem to bother them as much as I would have thought. But I do think it depends on the area and how used to human activity the animals are. A place like Island Park where elk, deer, bears, etc are used to seeing tens of thousands of visitors, atvs, sxs, snowmachines, trail groomers, cabins being built every day, etc get used to living in close proximity to noise and human smells. Just yesterday, I had my family looking for some huckleberrys behind a subdivision on national forest in IP, and we found fresh elk beds and poo that was a couple hours old... just 200 yards behind the cabins, and only a few yards beyond where you could literally see the roofs of several cabins. Over the years, I've seen bears in and around subdivisions frequently, even one came up to our garage once while I was sitting inside with the door open. They are very curious, but are also very habituated to living near humans in that area.

On the other hand, if you go to more remote areas, like the Frank or the Selway, it doesn't take very much human noise or activity to push animals several drainages away. This may be because the animals have a lot more room to roam, and aren't hemmed in by roads and other unnatural barriers they encounter in human populated areas like Island Park... or it might be because they just aren't as used to seeing humans and keep a wise distance. In this case, I would compare the elk ive found in the Lemhi range to those you might encounter in wilderness areas... much more wary of human contact than those in areas like Island Park... and very minimal contact results in the elk moving a long ways off to avoid further interactions. That's not to say those same elk don't also know which private lands they can find sanctuary on... because they do... but once up deep in the NF, human interaction can move them quickly.

On another note... Not to be the ethics police here... but let's not be advocating " "getting" around closures". Not only could it be dangerous for any remaining fire crews working to wrap things up, dangerous for first responders in an emergency, it is illegal and could cost a hunter thousands in federal fines if they were caught sneaking into a closed area before a closure was lifted, and I believe IDFG rules require compliance with all laws while engaging in hunting activities... which could cost someone their license as well... and of course hunting is all about purposefully and willfully abiding by rules, even when no one is watching... even the rules we don't agree with. That sets a level playing field.