Idaho Unit 22 History/Downfall

[IDMuleyKid]

As an avid reader of Ryan Hatfield’s “Idaho’s Greatest Mule Deer” it’s clear that unit 22 or Adams county once had epic hunting and possesses incredible genetics.

Nowadays after spending time in that area, it is clear that the Muley hunting is pretty bad and the area is littered with roads/bears.

Were these roads put in for logging? Are the bears/access to blame for the units historic downfall? Did the winter range get harmed etc?

I’m looking for theories/history on why an all time Muley area has fallen to a terrible low.

Also if anyone has stories about hunting that unit and how it’s changed I’d love to hear. I am enamored with Idaho's hunting history.

 

[Dioni A]

I've spent a lot of time taking with Ryan about this. I agree with him that the bears and atv access have impacted it dramatically but also think there's many other factors playing a large role. I greatly respect Ryan but think he saw it in a very special time where it was likely over the carrying capacity of that area and that frames some of where he thinks it should be. Additionally The Winter of 2017, long term draught, cheat grass encroachment, Loss of native browse and competition with exploding elk herds have added insult to injury.

Many of the roads in that area have been there a long time and we're put in for logging. At one point there was even a road going through the seven devils coming out of rapid River.

The elk competition is a serious issue also. It doesn't seem to be well know but basically all the elk in central Idaho were transplanted from Wyoming herds in the early 1900s. I think the first load was brought in by train in 1918. There was no elk hunting in most of Idaho until 1949 if I remember right. Ask any old timers and you'll hear about how rare elk were until the 80s and 90s. Ryan has stories he's told me about his uncle Hanks first time seeing one in that area.

At the end of the day I think mother nature plays the biggest role in the decline and rebuilding of most deer herds. I would really love to see that area get some of it's glory back too.

 

[IDMuleyKid]

It’s sad to see how an area that was once otc and productive is managed for a general 2 point hunt. Crazy amounts of unfulfilled genetic potential and lost otc opportunities.

Seems like one of many disheartening things Muley guys have to deal with but the show goes on.

Also where are these deer generally wintering ? Has that area(s) been impacted by development or human recreation ?

I’d be interested to see what Ryan had to say about changing habitat in 22, beyond the spread on non-natives, have unnatural fire suppression efforts halted plant regeneration?

 

[Dioni A]

Quite a few years ago Ryan and I were actually talking about how detrimental draw units are. You don't realy improve the structure of a deer herd by selective harvest of mature bucks with limited tags. Most of the mortality is shaped like a pyramid similar to the age structure of a deer herd. Killing young 2,3 and 4-point deer in the first few years of their life has very little impact on overall herd size and structure. When you make a unit into a trophy draw unit most of those deer are going to die similarly to if there was a hunting season. Then you have people focusing on the smallest part of the pyramid old age class bucks. You have to not kill a ton of small deer to allow for a tiny bit of growth at the top of the pyramid so that there's a higher number of mature bucks. You've also damaged every surrounding unit by hunter displacement. His explanation of this and idea that we should have no draw units in the state if we wanted to improve buck hunting as a whole seemed like a sound argument then and is now firmly what I believe also.

I do think unit 22 will spring back some. I don't think it'll ever be what it was in the '60s and '70s but it will get some of its glory back if we get good weather for a few years. You may not remember but through the mid 2010s there was significant numbers of great bucks coming out of that unit.

The deer from 22 winter down on the Snake River in hells canyon. As much as people like to complain about dams Idaho power has done an incredible job preserving tens of thousands of acres around the river for wildlife. You can look up research studies they've done on the wintering mule deer in that area. You can also visit the daily creek wildlife area owned and operated by Idaho power. It's on the Oregon side but their studies have shown that many of the Idaho deer will actually cross the river to winter.

 

[IdahoHntr]

Quite a few years ago Ryan and I were actually talking about how detrimental draw units are. You don't realy improve the structure of a deer herd by selective harvest of mature bucks with limited tags. Most of the mortality is shaped like a pyramid similar to the age structure of a deer herd. Killing young 2,3 and 4-point deer in the first few years of their life has very little impact on overall herd size and structure. When you make a unit into a trophy draw unit most of those deer are going to die similarly to if there was a hunting season. Then you have people focusing on the smallest part of the pyramid old age class bucks. You have to not kill a ton of small deer to allow for a tiny bit of growth at the top of the pyramid so that there's a higher number of mature bucks. You've also damaged every surrounding unit by hunter displacement. His explanation of this and idea that we should have no draw units in the state if we wanted to improve buck hunting as a whole seemed like a sound argument then and is now firmly what I believe also.

I have held this belief for a long time and have often had people tell me I’m crazy. “No way that getting rid of draw units could improve buck hunting in the state as a whole..” It’s different than how almost all of the western states manage for big deer in our current time and so it just seems like people struggle to wrap their head around it. Good to know that there are other buck hunters out there who might actually agree with me.

 

[Muledeerfanatic]

I grew up hunting 22, 31, 32, 32a
It was a cool place to be back then
Overhunted (people) is the problem in that area

 

[Dioni A]

I grew up hunting 22, 31, 32, 32a
It was a cool place to be back then
Overhunted (people) is the problem in that area

I can't remember where I read this but I'm fairly certain that Hunter's account for 8% of deer mortality on average across the West. Even if you doubled that for those units it's still a small fraction of the picture. Good habitat and good weather dictate herd size. Severe winters play a big role, predators secondary to that. Buck harvest does not impact herd size whatsoever. It's not like there's an overabundance of does and no bucks in the area.

 

[idahodave]

As with almost every wildlife species, the answer lies in the habitat. Good habitat supports good populations.

I believe the loss of native grasses and forbs to cheatgrass is the single, most significant issue our deer populations are facing.

Dave

 

[Customweld]

Unit 22 has produced some incredible bucks, but let's not forget Adams Co also has 32A and quite a few of those B and C entries came out of 32A. Mule deer in general are not doing well and unit 22 is no exception. It also shows that limiting harvest isn't the magical bullet everyone thinks it is. When the population was the strongest up there, correlates to when the most logging was taking place.

 

[Customweld]

It’s sad to see how an area that was once otc and productive is managed for a general 2 point hunt. Crazy amounts of unfulfilled genetic potential and lost otc opportunities.

Seems like one of many disheartening things Muley guys have to deal with but the show goes on.

Also where are these deer generally wintering ? Has that area(s) been impacted by development or human recreation ?

I’d be interested to see what Ryan had to say about changing habitat in 22, beyond the spread on non-natives, have unnatural fire suppression efforts halted plant regeneration?

They primarily winter in the breaks of Hells Canyon. Very little development, not much for winter recreation other than upland bird season that runs until Jan 31st.

 

[IDMuleyKid]

Quite a few years ago Ryan and I were actually talking about how detrimental draw units are. You don't realy improve the structure of a deer herd by selective harvest of mature bucks with limited tags. Most of the mortality is shaped like a pyramid similar to the age structure of a deer herd. Killing young 2,3 and 4-point deer in the first few years of their life has very little impact on overall herd size and structure. When you make a unit into a trophy draw unit most of those deer are going to die similarly to if there was a hunting season. Then you have people focusing on the smallest part of the pyramid old age class bucks. You have to not kill a ton of small deer to allow for a tiny bit of growth at the top of the pyramid so that there's a higher number of mature bucks. You've also damaged every surrounding unit by hunter displacement. His explanation of this and idea that we should have no draw units in the state if we wanted to improve buck hunting as a whole seemed like a sound argument then and is now firmly what I believe also.

I do think unit 22 will spring back some. I don't think it'll ever be what it was in the '60s and '70s but it will get some of its glory back if we get good weather for a few years. You may not remember but through the mid 2010s there was significant numbers of great bucks coming out of that unit.

The deer from 22 winter down on the Snake River in hells canyon. As much as people like to complain about dams Idaho power has done an incredible job preserving tens of thousands of acres around the river for wildlife. You can look up research studies they've done on the wintering mule deer in that area. You can also visit the daily creek wildlife area owned and operated by Idaho power. It's on the Oregon side but their studies have shown that many of the Idaho deer will actually cross the river to winter.

Thanks for all the information, I agree that we should do away with draw tags especially in units like 22 and 44 where there’s plenty of public land/access yes.

It’s encouraging to hear that that herds winter range is at least intact, with sound management the herd should improve.

 

[IDMuleyKid]

I have held this belief for a long time and have often had people tell me I’m crazy. “No way that getting rid of draw units could improve buck hunting in the state as a whole..” It’s different than how almost all of the western states manage for big deer in our current time and so it just seems like people struggle to wrap their head around it. Good to know that there are other buck hunters out there who might actually agree with me.

Especially in states like Idaho where public land is everywhere- 40,45,44,22 could go general any buck, even limited general and provide a lot of opportunities.

Imagine the lessening of pressure on 39/43, deer herds that need age class and better b/d ratios.

 

[IDMuleyKid]

Unit 22 has produced some incredible bucks, but let's not forget Adams Co also has 32A and quite a few of those B and C entries came out of 32A. Mule deer in general are not doing well and unit 22 is no exception. It also shows that limiting harvest isn't the magical bullet everyone thinks it is. When the population was the strongest up there, correlates to when the most logging was taking place.

I always got the idea that it mostly the 22 and a bit of the 23 parts of Adams county producing B&C’s.

It was certainly a magic time when the roads were first put in and logging began. Age class met quality feed and big bucks fell.

Still wish that area was more roadless, a lot of that high country looks awesome till I see a road going through it.

 

[Dioni A]

Thanks for all the information, I agree that we should do away with draw tags especially in units like 22 and 44 where there’s plenty of public land/access yes.

It’s encouraging to hear that that herds winter range is at least intact, with sound management the herd should improve.

I believe that hunters falsely and naively think that we manage game populations. Weather and habitat as a subproduct of that weather are the biggest lever of change. If we have good moisture and mild winters the deer will do well with the area they have to live in. We control very little.

 

[Customweld]

I always got the idea that it mostly the 22 and a bit of the 23 parts of Adams county producing B&C’s.

It was certainly a magic time when the roads were first put in and logging began. Age class met quality feed and big bucks fell.

Still wish that area was more roadless, a lot of that high country looks awesome till I see a road going through it.

A good portion of 22 actually sits in Washington Co. The old roads are growing in, the FS doesn't do much maintenance on non-system roads. The state owns a pretty good chunk on the Council side of Cuddy.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Bears def hammer the fawns more than any other predator, per many studies west wide. But surely isn’t the only reason for the MD demise in that area…

 

[Customweld]

Bears def hammer the fawns more than any other predator, per many studies west wide. But surely isn’t the only reason for the MD demise in that area…

There definitely isn't a shortage of bears in that country. Although I think the new private ground rule is having a pretty dramatic reduction their numbers. My in laws live in Council above the valley floor. It wasn't uncommon to see 5 or 6 different bears roaming their property this time of year. We haven't seen a bear on the place for about a year and a half

 

[littlebigtine]

I believe that hunters falsely and naively think that we manage game populations. Weather and habitat as a subproduct of that weather are the biggest lever of change. If we have good moisture and mild winters the deer will do well with the area they have to live in. We control very little.

this is a great conversation and am enjoying the back and forth. Im gonna split with you on this a bit though. I think that the north american model of conservation depends on hunters to manage herds. i agree that weather and habitat are main functions but they are almost equaled by harvest rates in certain units that see more traffic. id bet that you would agree that after this “horrific” winter, winter kill didnt seem especially bad or far above average in central idaho and really the habitat is in the best shape ive personally ever seen in my home area. to that point the reason why alot of bucks die in my local unit will be hunting with harvest at about 10% of total unit population

 

[Eastman528]

I agree this is a good conversation, I have interest in the specific unit but I think supersedes that and is applicable across the state and the west. I think its great to hear the perspectives and challenge your way of thinking, I have to admit the whole draw units being detrimental idea isn't something I had really correlated before. Dioni's point about managing game populations is spot on in my opinion. I am a forester by profession and I see the same thing in silviculture/forestry its a common human flaw to think we are in control more than we are in reality and to take complex and dynamic ecological systems and try to simplify them when in reality there are a multitude of factors at play and to focus on one (over harvest, predator management etc.) is to ignore the others. I think similar to the OP I am just trying to be a student and learn from those that have more experience than me so this is great. I am a life long hunter but more recently have become infatuated with mule deer, I also own and have read Ryan's books and they are great resources and if nothing else keep the fire lit inside. Speaking specifically to unit 22 I am curious how the recent Woodhead fire will effect habitat in that area of the unit, unfortunately I am sure invasive species such as cheat grass and noxious weeds are and will continue to colonize allot of these areas but hopefully some good will come of it too and create some browse. I tend to agree with the point about competition, at least I am seeing a trend in traditionally good mule deer areas I am scouting where I am struggling to find deer but elk populations are doing quite well, that said I have found some good elk spots so there's always a positive haha. I have also seen this play out close to home where traditionally we had high populations of whitetail but EHD has essentially wiped them out, I think that along with lack of grazing in very specific places has resulted in why I am again seeing mule deer in these spots.

 

[Customweld]

I agree this is a good conversation, I have interest in the specific unit but I think supersedes that and is applicable across the state and the west. I think its great to hear the perspectives and challenge your way of thinking, I have to admit the whole draw units being detrimental idea isn't something I had really correlated before. Dioni's point about managing game populations is spot on in my opinion. I am a forester by profession and I see the same thing in silviculture/forestry its a common human flaw to think we are in control more than we are in reality and to take complex and dynamic ecological systems and try to simplify them when in reality there are a multitude of factors at play and to focus on one (over harvest, predator management etc.) is to ignore the others. I think similar to the OP I am just trying to be a student and learn from those that have more experience than me so this is great. I am a life long hunter but more recently have become infatuated with mule deer, I also own and have read Ryan's books and they are great resources and if nothing else keep the fire lit inside. Speaking specifically to unit 22 I am curious how the recent Woodhead fire will effect habitat in that area of the unit, unfortunately I am sure invasive species such as cheat grass and noxious weeds are and will continue to colonize allot of these areas but hopefully some good will come of it too and create some browse. I tend to agree with the point about competition, at least I am seeing a trend in traditionally good mule deer areas I am scouting where I am struggling to find deer but elk populations are doing quite well, that said I have found some good elk spots so there's always a positive haha. I have also seen this play out close to home where traditionally we had high populations of whitetail but EHD has essentially wiped them out, I think that along with lack of grazing in very specific places has resulted in why I am again seeing mule deer in these spots.

I think the Woodhead fire (as much as I hate to see stuff burn) will have a positive effect on the area. It burnt late in the year and although it did get ignorant in a few spots, it was pretty mosaic on the north end. The state logged the snot out of their ground on the Council side after it burnt. The top of Cuddy was due for some type of management, so the fire met the bill. The winter of '17 was absolutely brutal on the animals. The normal winter ground above Brownlee rarely sees a constant snowpack, in '17 it was deep and had a heavy crust for most of the winter. Fawn mortality was estimated at 90+. According to the Rokcast that Robby had with IFG, mule deer can see a 26-27 percent population increase per year if conditions are right, whereas whitetails cans see up to 67 percent.