I think "Wallop" is a thing

[nagibson1]

I don't have any experience yet with 223 on deer. A friend tried to get me onto it a decade ago, took my son out to a blind and shot an 8pt and lost it. then he switched to 308. But now I have access to a place I need to kill as many does as possible, and I'm going to run the 223 on it. See what happens. I'll have a look at those bullet suggestions. I mostly got it for practice shooting though.

 

[Pilsner]

Like most things the Aussies and Americans have different spellings for the same words.

Is it spelled Wallop or "Wallup"?

 

[Pilsner]

Don't blame the chambering/cartridge when bullet selection is the problem. An FMJ in 378-300 Weatherby would yield the same result and you can't blame lack of wallup in that case...
We have had fantastic luck out to nearly 400 yards with high shoulder shots on whitetails using 223/5.56 in 77 grain TMK's. Bang! Flop! While we are not doing industrial level culling, we are killing dozens of critters every season, so this is not a N=1 scenario.

I don't have any experience yet with 223 on deer. A friend tried to get me onto it a decade ago, took my son out to a blind and shot an 8pt and lost it. then he switched to 308. But now I have access to a place I need to kill as many does as possible, and I'm going to run the 223 on it. See what happens. I'll have a look at those bullet suggestions. I mostly got it for practice shooting though.

 

[nagibson1]

Don't blame the chambering/cartridge when bullet selection is the problem. An FMJ in 378-300 Weatherby would yield the same result and you can't blame lack of wallup in that case...
We have had fantastic luck out to nearly 400 yards with high shoulder shots on whitetails using 223/5.56 in 77 grain TMK's. Bang! Flop! While we are not doing industrial level culling, we are killing dozens of critters every season, so this is not a N=1 scenario.

I was not intending to give data. I think the problem was actually shot placement in this case. I'm just telling a story about what happened- that someone telling me the 223 was the answer had a failure and backed off of it himself. That delayed me in getting one. Now that I'll have an opportunity to do doe culling, I'm keep to give it a try on deer sized game.

 

[hereinaz]

Gr

To start this conversation, i'm no JVB or Spomer, but there is definitely something going on with bigger calibers that doesn't happen with smaller calibers. Full stop

I fully believe in the effectiveness of 223/5.56, 6mm, and 25 cal rounds. I used them and have taken deer with them and I continue to do it. Anecdotally though, I see waaay more destructiveness coming from 6.5mm+ calibers. This isn't just my annecdote either. Between myself and two friends we see over 100 deer killed every year(damage control permits). We pop deer out to 600yd. Even when using the "holy grail" 6mm bullets that are talked about here, we tend to see deer running upwards of 100yards and less meat blowout than deer dropped with the 6.5+ bullets. 6.5+ bullets tend to completely remove legs and generally are dropping deer like a light switch going from on to off. (these statements exclude head shots)

Wallop is a thing, but not in the way most understand it. Wallop is expressed in how a bullet sheds its energy. 2 identical weight and caliber bullets will wallop a deer differently based on construction type. Think 55g FMJ vs 55g V-MAX . The FMJ will likely pencil through and the Vmax will blow up with 5" of penetration. Now we can easy say bigger bullet at same velocity and same construction type is more energy downrange, thats physics. So, that said a 6mm bullet that doesn't exit and breaks into 5 pieces would in theory dump more energy than a 300 win mag monolith bullet(bullet tip barely expands to bullet diameter). I say "in theory" because we can only theorize 300 win energy imparted on target because bullet continued to fly and really only poked a 30 cal size hole.

I've drawn up a sweet graph on how we want our bullets to act and how JVB's bullets act.

The red line is obviously ideal right? Low energy energy at entry and after it penetrates it has a HUGE disruption causing damage and that energy and velocity will drop to zero as it approaches the backside of the target. We know this happens when there is no exit hole. I'm not saying that I consider it a bullet failure if the bullet exits.

Blue line might actually be a bit too generous because some people have found their monocore bullet in the offside hide, but the wound channel is basically same size as caliber of the bullet as opposed to multiple little wound channelsView attachment 916598

Graph the size of the wound... that's what kills.

 

[EastTX Jess]

Question wasn't to me, but my answer is yes, on the blood trails. The cheap Hornady are also better than corelokt and blue box Federal 100 gr for blood trails.

I agree, mostly. I see a ton of smallish central TX deer killed with 100 grain core-lokt and interlocks every year (one property gets over 100 MLD tags). Shots are close, mostly inside 100yds. Both bullets exit, but, the core-lokts leave bigger holes. We get more bang flops with core-lokts. The interlocks do better when impacting bone. I have people shoot them high shoulders vs lungs. On lung shots with interlocks, we have longer track jobs with less blood. As it relates to the OP’s topic, the interlock is the “better” aka tougher constructed bullet, but, the core lokt seems to expend more energy in the animal. Again, just a side by side comparison of 100gr .243 cup and core options.

 

[KenLee]

I agree, mostly. I see a ton of smallish central TX deer killed with 100 grain core-lokt and interlocks every year (one property gets over 100 MLD tags). Shots are close, mostly inside 100yds. Both bullets exit, but, the core-lokts leave bigger holes. We get more bang flops with core-lokts. The interlocks do better when impacting bone. I have people shoot them high shoulders vs lungs. On lung shots with interlocks, we have longer track jobs with less blood. As it relates to the OP’s topic, the interlock is the “better” aka tougher constructed bullet, but, the core lokt seems to expend more energy in the animal. Again, just a side by side comparison of 100gr .243 cup and core options.

Most of the 243 shots on deer I see are compact rifles (20 inch barrels) at 125-175 yards. Core-lokts exit about half the time.

 

[IDVortex]

Do you have to worry about the wallop factor if you use a 120mm projectile?

 

[Harvey_NW]

Is it spelled Wallop or "Wallup"?

If you put a brimmed hat on and start telling others about it, it's pronounced Whallop. You have to emphasize the H to get it across with authority.

 

[KenLee]

If you put a brimmed hat on and start telling others about it, it's pronounced Whallop. You have to emphasize the H to get it across with authority.

Valid

 

[Cdnance]

Problem is you left off two of the best made, best killing bullets of all time......Nosler accubond and partition. Throw in a Lapua Scenar and you're in business.

I may be wrong but I bet the good old Remington cor-lokt bullet has probably killed more critters than anything else. And those are about as basic as you can get!

 

[robtattoo]

Is it spelled Wallop or "Wallup"?

In traditional muzzleloading circles it's 'Whomp'

 

[doc holiday13]

Do you have to worry about the wallop factor if you use a 120mm projectile?

Yes.. it's possible you're violating game laws with "wanton waste" , destruction of property, and/or caliber larger than maximum allowed

 

[IDVortex]

Can't violate game laws if there's nothing left...

Yes.. it's possible you're violating game laws with "wanton waste" , destruction of property, and/or caliber larger than maximum allowed

 

[Cdnance]

Yes.. it's possible you're violating game laws with "wanton waste" , destruction of property, and/or caliber larger than maximum allowed

Looks like we got a tattletale!!!

 

[Bado20]

Gr


Graph the size of the wound... that's what kills.

I agree with you, I will say that part of the issue is a lot of guys shooting big magnums shoot monolithic bullets. I am very skeptical to any claim that a 285gr ELD-M from a 338 RUM is going to do less damage than a 77TMK from 223. Whether that extra damage is actually necessary for North American game is debatable.

That said, I've never shot anything with an match bullet heavier than the 162 ELD-M as I've never felt the need to so this is simply speculation. For deer sized game the match bullets in the 223 have performed well for me.

 

[doc holiday13]

Looks like we got a tattletale!!!

Only thing you'll catch me doing is tell you "what you're about to do looks like fun, but probably not legal. so don't get caught"

 

[FredH]

Yes, this is what was lost in the "kill everything with a .223" (i got one by the way) convo. I like my bullets to exit. I just do. I think it makes for better blood trails, and I think that matters. that doesn't make the .223 less deadly, it just means it will often not meet a criteria that I HAVE. Medium construction bullets that expand and still fully penetrate do a lot of both. I prefer that. I like a good .243 interlock in 100 gr.
However, man do larger calibers destroy a lot of meat on a deer. It can be gruesome. This last year I swore I was done hitting whitetails with a 3006.

All you have to do is use tougher or heavier bullets. Even lowering velocity works. The 180 grain Ballistic Tip at 2700 fps is a solid deer load.

 

[FredH]

Love your graph, to add to the silliness here, you guys all remember the ballistic pendulum from freshman physics? Helpful in thinking about this.

Off the top of my head… if I were to come up with a wallop algorithm it would an integration of tissue disruption (2D) with respect to distance (that gets your 3D total tissue disruption).



Now that makes some assumptions that are not great on the edge cases:

-All tissue is the same

-A giant shallow hole/ divot isn’t equal to a tiny hole all the way though.



To correct for those, one could have a weighted factor for different types of tissue, i.e. heart tissue is ranked higher than other muscle tissue. Have some min thresholds for penetration and such as well.



I like the term “Applied Energy” for this. How much of the bullets energy is actually getting applied to destroying tissue.



If you wanted to see efficiency of sorts, divide the cumulative tissue damage number by the energy captured by the ballistic pendulum. That way you can see how a stouter round with a tough bullet compares to a more anemic round with a more destructive bullet.

Why not compare similar bullets?

 

[Sundodger]

Why not compare similar bullets?

No reason you can't, you can compare all sorts of variables. What I wrote out was just the first thing that popped into my head.