I dont understand the hostility towards wolf reintroduction in Colorado

NE Washington has taken the brunt of the wolf reintroduction in WA. Our deer elk and moose population has plummeted in the last 5-6 years. You can go for a drive with fresh snow on the ground in excellent habitat and maybe see a few tracks crossing the road. Pretty much will guarantee seeing wolf tracks and maybe a fresh kill. We will never be able to hunt wolves in Washington even though we are over objective for what was originally the goal. Our game commission is made up primarily of predator lovers and they have essentially said that the ungulate population can be controlled totally by predators and we are getting there quickly. Now they want to release grizzlies into the Pasayten Wilderness. I have no problem with predators if they are managed and their population is kept in check. Our Washington Department of Felines and Wolves took away spring bear season two years ago on the premise that too many sows were being killed, with no proof. I've been applying for a moose tag for 30+ years in WA and I doubt that I will ever draw, and my luck if I do, there will be no moose. The elk have definitely moved down out of the mountains the agricultural borders to stay away from the wolves. None of this happens overnight, it takes time, but I will guarantee Colorado's premier elk herds will dwindle from wolf predation. To the OP, if you really like to enjoy all that the natural world has to offer, better get out there while you can.
 
I'll never forget the discussion I had with an outfitter in the selway/lolo area around 2010. I asked how their season was going and he all but started crying. He said that 10 years earlier they would kill more 6 point bulls than all the elk they were going to see that year. Judging by all of the incredible camps that were grown over....he wasn't wrong.
 
I guess since this thread is wolf related, shows how uneducated many voters are/were and has a high volume of posts very quickly it may be a good place to propose a ballot initiative to reverse prop 114. Would that be possible? It seems like a lot of people I know (in their 20s and 30s) did not vote in Colorado in the last election, or were uninformed when they did, and now realize their mistake in voting for 114. We would have until March 22nd to submit a proposal, and until August 5th to gather 124k signatures. Surely that would not be that difficult. Either we could try and reverse it completely, or at least propose that there not be any more than the 10 already introduced. I would be willing to gather signatures in the Gunnison valley and surrounding areas. Would anyone be interested in drafting the language? I would hope we could get some donations and physical help from hunting organizations and many of the hunters here. Feel free to reach out via DM.
 
Caseknife said:
NE Washington has taken the brunt of the wolf reintroduction in WA. Our deer elk and moose population has plummeted in the last 5-6 years. You can go for a drive with fresh snow on the ground in excellent habitat and maybe see a few tracks crossing the road. Pretty much will guarantee seeing wolf tracks and maybe a fresh kill. We will never be able to hunt wolves in Washington even though we are over objective for what was originally the goal. Our game commission is made up primarily of predator lovers and they have essentially said that the ungulate population can be controlled totally by predators and we are getting there quickly. Now they want to release grizzlies into the Pasayten Wilderness. I have no problem with predators if they are managed and their population is kept in check. Our Washington Department of Felines and Wolves took away spring bear season two years ago on the premise that too many sows were being killed, with no proof. I've been applying for a moose tag for 30+ years in WA and I doubt that I will ever draw, and my luck if I do, there will be no moose. The elk have definitely moved down out of the mountains the agricultural borders to stay away from the wolves. None of this happens overnight, it takes time, but I will guarantee Colorado's premier elk herds will dwindle from wolf predation. To the OP, if you really like to enjoy all that the natural world has to offer, better get out there while you can.
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If anyone needs help understanding the corruption and bias in the wdfw....this will help.

 
Gutshot007 said:
Studies in minnesota shows wolves pound moose calves
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I'm not saying wolves have zero impact. And most ungulate calves/fawns tend to suffer from high predation rates whether it's wolves, bears, coyotes, etc.

What I'm saying is that the brain worm and tick issues are worse than wolves. Even in Minnesota. While yes, this study found wolves to be the cause of 32% of the deaths, the parasite and bacterial infections combined amounted to 51% of deaths, with the brain worm in particular being found in 40% of the wolf predations (a significantly higher rate of occurrence than found in the general population).
Determining Cause Specific Mortality of Adult Moose in Northeast Minnesota ... https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/research/summaries/health/2016_moose-mortality.pdf
 
OP, do you hunt other states? Have you had actual experience in regards to game populations with the effect of wolf populations exploding? Do you know what all is required for a rancher to get paid for a wolf kill? Does money replace the horse that you taught your kids to ride on and has been a family friend for years? Because of being protected, Wolves have almost zero fear of humans right now ... so coming into a ranchyard is a common occurrence. Know what steps US Fish and Wildlife suggest to prevent Wolf/livestock interaction? It a ridiculous joke but its really not funny

The idea sounds good and quite romantic, unfortunately ii is the idea is what gets voted on and not the reality
 
johnnycake said:
I'm not saying wolves have zero impact. And most ungulate calves/fawns tend to suffer from high predation rates whether it's wolves, bears, coyotes, etc.

What I'm saying is that the brain worm and tick issues are worse than wolves. Even in Minnesota. While yes, this study found wolves to be the cause of 32% of the deaths, the parasite and bacterial infections combined amounted to 51% of deaths, with the brain worm in particular being found in 40% of the wolf predations (a significantly higher rate of occurrence than found in the general population).
Determining Cause Specific Mortality of Adult Moose in Northeast Minnesota ... https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/research/summaries/health/2016_moose-mortality.pdf
Click to expand...
Winter ticks have been hard on the Idaho moose population as well. Death by a thousand cuts, so to say.
 
I was a young man when they were introduced in Idaho. I saw my first one in 1996 in The FCW. They have done extremely well in Idaho. It hasn't been the end of elk hunting, but changed it no doubt. Elk behavior has changed, elk distribution has most definitely changed. They are an extremely smart animal and a challenge to hunt.
 
johnnycake said:
Based on posts #274-279, and others sprinkled throughout the prior 14 pages bemoaning wolves as the culprit for moose declines in [insert location here], enough to be worth bringing up some actual facts and a published study.
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Seems that reintroducing wolves isnt helping the disease situation then.
 
johnnycake said:
Based on posts #274-279, and others sprinkled throughout the prior 14 pages bemoaning wolves as the culprit for moose declines in [insert location here], enough to be worth bringing up some actual facts and a published study.
Click to expand...
Further studies on Calve mortality showed predation the number 1 cause of death. 69% wolves , 15% bear , the rest others -bobcat, coyote etc
 
johnnycake said:
Brainworm and ticks are affecting moose populations worse than predation by wolves or other species.
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Brainworm and ticks aren't doing enough damage already? Better introduce wolves to really decimate the populations. Weird way of justifying reintroduction.
Right back to the covid basics, a moose killed by wolves and happens to have brainworms, indeed it must have died from brainworms.
 
Koda_ said:
Seems that reintroducing wolves isnt helping the disease situation then.
Click to expand...
Could be true. But I do temper my opinion on the impacts of wolves on CO moose with recognizing that wolves are native to Colorado, moose are not. Moose did not occur in CO until the 1970s transplants, other than the rare wanderer in NW CO that came from UT or WY.
I'm a lifelong hunter from generations of hunters across the West, East, and elsewhere. My opinion on wolf expansion and reintroduction has flipped completely since the 1990s. The same cries and extreme warnings rampant in this thread have been raised for decades, but honestly, I just haven't seen where wolves are the culprit they are claimed to be by many of the folks that like to identify hunters as the forefront of wildlife conservation. Look at overall elk populations state by state from the 1950s to present and compare that with when wolves became reestablished in each of those areas. Elk are doing fine (Oregon in particular is fun to see the ~10% increase in elk since the first wolves were documented there). Moose, bighorns, and mule deer are struggling similar across the board, whether or not wolves are present. The wolves aren't the drivers of those declines.

Gutshot007 said:
Further studies on Calve mortality showed predation the number 1 cause of death. 69% wolves , 15% bear , the rest others -bobcat, coyote etc
Click to expand...
And if you removed the wolves, the distribution between other species would change but the actual percentage of young of the year dying from predation remains roughly the same. Non additive mortality. Most moose calves die in their first year of life, regardless of which predators are on the landscape. The calf doesn't really care if it ends up in the belly of the wolf or the bear, it's dead just the same.

I don't like ballot box biology one bit, but that isn't a reason to rely on the various SSS mentality emotional arguments against wolves on the landscape.
 
johnnycake said:
Could be true. But I do temper my opinion on the impacts of wolves on CO moose with recognizing that wolves are native to Colorado, moose are not. Moose did not occur in CO until the 1970s transplants, other than the rare wanderer in NW CO that came from UT or WY.
I'm a lifelong hunter from generations of hunters across the West, East, and elsewhere. My opinion on wolf expansion and reintroduction has flipped completely since the 1990s. The same cries and extreme warnings rampant in this thread have been raised for decades, but honestly, I just haven't seen where wolves are the culprit they are claimed to be by many of the folks that like to identify hunters as the forefront of wildlife conservation. Look at overall elk populations state by state from the 1950s to present and compare that with when wolves became reestablished in each of those areas. Elk are doing fine (Oregon in particular is fun to see the ~10% increase in elk since the first wolves were documented there). Moose, bighorns, and mule deer are struggling similar across the board, whether or not wolves are present. The wolves aren't the drivers of those declines.


And if you removed the wolves, the distribution between other species would change but the actual percentage of young of the year dying from predation remains roughly the same. Non additive mortality. Most moose calves die in their first year of life, regardless of which predators are on the landscape. The calf doesn't really care if it ends up in the belly of the wolf or the bear, it's dead just the same.

I don't like ballot box biology one bit, but that isn't a reason to rely on the various SSS mentality emotional arguments against wolves on the landscape.
Click to expand...
In oregon, do you know if the number of elk went up in the actual units the wolves are in? Or just overall in the state? Im genuinely curious
 
Cameron.25 said:
In oregon, do you know if the number of elk went up in the actual units the wolves are in? Or just overall in the state? Im genuinely curious
Click to expand...
Overall increase statewide, but it's a mixture of ups and downs across the units with increases and declines in wolf and non wolf units (and for both Roosevelt and Rocky/American subspecies) from what I remember seeing.
 
johnnycake said:
Could be true. But I do temper my opinion on the impacts of wolves on CO moose with recognizing that wolves are native to Colorado, moose are not. Moose did not occur in CO until the 1970s transplants, other than the rare wanderer in NW CO that came from UT or WY.
I'm a lifelong hunter from generations of hunters across the West, East, and elsewhere. My opinion on wolf expansion and reintroduction has flipped completely since the 1990s. The same cries and extreme warnings rampant in this thread have been raised for decades, but honestly, I just haven't seen where wolves are the culprit they are claimed to be by many of the folks that like to identify hunters as the forefront of wildlife conservation. Look at overall elk populations state by state from the 1950s to present and compare that with when wolves became reestablished in each of those areas. Elk are doing fine (Oregon in particular is fun to see the ~10% increase in elk since the first wolves were documented there). Moose, bighorns, and mule deer are struggling similar across the board, whether or not wolves are present. The wolves aren't the drivers of those declines.
Click to expand...
Even if we hypothetically removed all the moose in CO, you cited wolves killed 35% which is still a significant impact on any prey species. I don't think anyone here is saying wolf depredation is the only thing killing ungulates, if we apply roughly only 35% kill rate to deer and elk thats still a huge impact on struggling prey species.
In Oregon Mule deer are struggling and eastern elk populations are more stable but slightly below objectives.
oregonhunters.org

2023 Oregon Big Game Preview - Oregon Hunters Association

Better late than ever! By Jim Yuskavitch, for Oregon Hunter...
oregonhunters.org oregonhunters.org
 
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