Hunting bullet performance - prefer through or a grenade inside?

[hereinaz]

The kids make fun of my choice for an old bullet like a Partition or even an Accubond with an old soul, so I remind them if every generation doesn’t produce something better the world is doomed. With 2 million big game animals taken in North America every year, and decades and decades of bullet development time, why is it the only changes seem to be in marketing of cartridges that simply duplicate old cartridge performance with more twist, and bullets with better aerodynamics and putting a cute different color tip on everything, as if that’s new or an improvement. I’m disappointed there aren’t clearly better bullets - if the current generation of bullets were clearly better folks wouldn’t have to try so hard to try and convince each other, it would simply be obvious, and threads like this wouldn’t exist.

You are just flat wrong to say the new calibers duplicate the old ones. SAAMI specs show different throats for longer high BC bullets and faster twists, among other things.

Look at a ballistic table.

It’s statements like yours there, in many variations, that create the need for conversation to eliminate the confusion.

 

[Scoutfan]

I want both. A Partition is the closest to ideal bulls that I’ve seen for this. I don’t understand why Nosler hasn’t modernized the Partition to have a better BC.


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The accubond is as close in performance to a modernized partition as I have found except maybe the federal terminal assent.

 

[TaperPin]

You are just flat wrong to say the new calibers duplicate the old ones. SAAMI specs show different throats for longer high BC bullets and faster twists, among other things.

Look at a ballistic table.

It’s statements like yours there, in many variations, that create the need for conversation to eliminate the confusion.

You are correct about confusion and people should learn more about what makes a good cartridge and chamber dimensions. There’s nothing special about any of them, other than Hornady has convinced an entire generation that they should be buying SAAMI factory rifles in PRC and Creedmoor cartridges. The generations of “not following the crowds and not believing Fudd lore” has been tricked into being SAAMI marketing sheep. Fast twist barrels and throats any size you want have been around forever - the desire to buy a rifle off the rack and not reload is what’s new. Having throats adjusted doesn’t even require taking the rifle out of the stock. Nothing wrong with heavy for caliber bullets, but most shooters have bought into the marketing without an actual need for them. If someone thinks something new is cool that’s reason enough to get a new gun, but it’s marketing driven.

22 Creed isn’t anything more special than a fast twist 22-250 AI or 220 Swift.
6 creed doesn’t do anything a fast twist 6mm rem does.
6.5-08 has been around in long range match rifles since the 308 came out, and the 260 Rem had a long successful track record in factory or custom barrels before the 6.5 Creed was dreamed up to sell rifles and ammo.

I see it as a race to the bottom - dumbing down shooters so they stop reloading and only buy SAAMI rifles.

 

[hereinaz]

You are correct about confusion and people should learn more about what makes a good cartridge and chamber dimensions. There’s nothing special about any of them, other than Hornady has convinced an entire generation that they should be buying SAAMI factory rifles in PRC and Creedmoor cartridges. The generations of “not following the crowds and not believing Fudd lore” has been tricked into being SAAMI marketing sheep. Fast twist barrels and throats any size you want have been around forever - the desire to buy a rifle off the rack and not reload is what’s new. Having throats adjusted doesn’t even require taking the rifle out of the stock. Nothing wrong with heavy for caliber bullets, but most shooters have bought into the marketing without an actual need for them. If someone thinks something new is cool that’s reason enough to get a new gun, but it’s marketing driven.

22 Creed isn’t anything more special than a fast twist 22-250 AI or 220 Swift.
6 creed doesn’t do anything a fast twist 6mm rem does.
6.5-08 has been around in long range match rifles since the 308 came out, and the 260 Rem had a long successful track record in factory or custom barrels before the 6.5 Creed was dreamed up to sell rifles and ammo.

I see it as a race to the bottom - dumbing down shooters so they stop reloading and only buy SAAMI rifles.

You have a very extreme and unique set of basic beliefs and opinions here.

"dumbing down shooters so they stop reloading and only buy SAAMI rifles"
"Hornady has convinced an entire generation that they should be buying SAAMI factory rifles"
"the desire to buy a rifle off the rack and not reload is what's new"

 

[TaperPin]

You have a very extreme and unique set of basic beliefs and opinions here.

"dumbing down shooters so they stop reloading and only buy SAAMI rifles"
"Hornady has convinced an entire generation that they should be buying SAAMI factory rifles"
"the desire to buy a rifle off the rack and not reload is what's new

The almighty dollar has over ridden common sense. Before Hornady, Remington tried to cover all existing niches with new SAUM’s or Ultramags, so they were no better. Winchester and Nosler try as they may, but there just isn’t enough marketing budget for them to move the needle. Everyone tries to get a piece of the pie - look at all the failed cartridges that have been marketed and didn’t really provide anything new. Look at all the proprietary cartridges from small shops that are being sold - all of them are profit driven.

A friend who is always belly-aching about belted cartridges - asked him to chamber a round and shoot it - then tell me if it’s a belted case or not. The anti belted movement is all part of selling more Hornady ammo. It could be said the emphasis on smaller cartridges is also marketing and profit driven. Hornady’s podcast is full of suggestions encouraging more profitable shooting habits, and it’s not even hidden - they fully admit the more people shoot the more money they make and they are in the business of making money.

 

[hereinaz]

The almighty dollar has over ridden common sense. Before Hornady, Remington tried to cover all existing niches with new SAUM’s or Ultramags, so they were no better. Winchester and Nosler try as they may, but there just isn’t enough marketing budget for them to move the needle. Everyone tries to get a piece of the pie - look at all the failed cartridges that have been marketed and didn’t really provide anything new. Look at all the proprietary cartridges from small shops that are being sold - all of them are profit drive

MERICA!

 

[TaperPin]

It’s been a few years since looking at ballistics gel videos, so the grandson and I are going through some of the latest little bullets and old reliable 7 mag bullets. I highly recommend looking through some of them - it seems everyone has gel blocks now. Nothing surprising to me - cute little bullets with their little short arms and legs, talking in chipmunk voices, are great for short distances if your expectations aren’t too high. A bonded 160 gr at 7 mag velocities looks about like I’d expect - definitely gets my vote.

Or do we not believe in ballistic gel? If It’s a sensitive topic I’ll stop talking about it. Lol

 

[hereinaz]

It’s been a few years since looking at ballistics gel videos, so the grandson and I are going through some of the latest little bullets and old reliable 7 mag bullets. I highly recommend looking through some of them - it seems everyone has gel blocks now. Nothing surprising to me - cute little bullets with their little short arms and legs, talking in chipmunk voices, are great for short distances if your expectations aren’t too high. A bonded 160 gr at 7 mag velocities looks about like I’d expect - definitely gets my vote.

Or do we not believe in ballistic gel? If It’s a sensitive topic I’ll stop talking about it.

Why not rely on actual photos?

 

[TaperPin]

Why not rely on actual photos?

Do you think Rokslide provides an unbiased collection of large and small caliber, tough and not so tough bullet kills that are easy to compare? No, it’s an echo chamber of “see all the bloodshot meat - this 223 would have killed a dinosaur.” Lol

 

[hereinaz]

Do you think Rokslide provides an unbiased collection of large and small caliber, tough and not so tough bullet kills that are easy to compare? No, it’s an echo chamber of “see all the bloodshot meat - this 223 would have killed a dinosaur.” Lol

Tell me more about the bias?

Specifically, why would you claim the pictures are the result of bias when the many pictures confirm what the .223 shows in ballistic gel?

Do you think that the bullets don’t perform in game like they reliably do in gel?

If so, why would you rely on gel for any other bullet or caliber?

 

[hereinaz]

Tell me more about the bias?

Specifically, why would you claim the pictures are the result of bias when the many pictures confirm what the .223 shows in ballistic gel?

Do you think that the bullets don’t perform in game like they reliably do in gel?

If so, why would you rely on gel for any other bullet or caliber?

Also, feel free to leave out the hyperbole and sarcasm if you answer me directly, you aren’t talking to all the “kids” “chipmunks” or “echo chamber”.

I want to see your best persuasive argument laid out as plain as possible.

 

[BLJ]

Also, feel free to leave out the hyperbole and sarcasm if you answer me directly, you aren’t talking to all the “kids” “chipmunks” or “echo chamber”.

I want to see your best persuasive argument laid out as plain as possible.

Here come the pancakes and tennis balls…..

 

[Pilsner]

Big, wide-open, west? I want the grenade so I can watch it drop in the sage flats.

Thick, brushy, country in the midwest? I prefer the pass through.

I've been called in on a couple of tracking jobs made MUCH harder than they needed to be due to lack of an exit wound. I allowed a neighbor kid to hunt my land for the youth season this year. She shot her second deer ever but couldn't find it due to lack of blood and the kid was pretty disheartened. When I finally found her deer, we learned her shot was nearly perfect. Double lunged from an elevated stand. The chest cavity was soup that would have leaked out nicely with a pass through shot.

Had that exact same thing happen with a new Veteran hunter who i have been mentoring this season. Sadly we fought it after the coyotes did.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I'm trying to understand the desire for dropping their tracks with frangible bullet# (never guaranteed, and documented many, many times that they don't ) vs. drop in tracks potential (more than not for me with Barnes bullets for all generations of X , TSX, TTSX for 30 years) and a certain exit while having to walk (maybe) 10-30 yards to find the dead animal if it didn't drop. People have been scared into the "no tracking mantra", and destroy meat without any guarantee.

 

[TaperPin]

Also, feel free to leave out the hyperbole and sarcasm if you answer me directly, you aren’t talking to all the “kids” “chipmunks” or “echo chamber”.

I want to see your best persuasive argument laid out as plain as possible.

I don’t see one type of bullet as inherently universally better or worse, but they are different with differing strengths and limitations. Hunting styles, animal habitat and personal preference should factor in which bullet someone uses for different applications.

Match bullets do the vast majority of their damage in the first foot - nothing ground breaking there - I believe many of the main voices in support of them have said as much. This is the same performance seen since well before my time with lightly constructed bullets that fall midway between varmint bullets and controlled expansion. The limitations of these bullets are primarily depth of penetration.

Bonded, mono, or limited expansion bullets that retain more weight and penetrate further, often have a more limited amount of destruction over a longer path of penetration. In smaller calibers that doesn’t kill as fast as match bullets, so often larger calibers or rounds with higher velocities are used to get both quick kills and deeper penetration. This has also been true since well before my time. The main limitations of these bullets are the time and effort shooting the larger cartridges.

When folks on either side start claiming their bullet is universally better without a trade off of any kind, in my mind they are obviously biased to the point of being blinded, or unaware of what the trade offs are. I like to take shots from almost any angle so bullets that penetrate well fit that. I don’t care for creedmoor cartridges, but I have a 22 creed to shoot 77 TMK with and I have no doubt it will work. I don’t care for 6.5 creed, 6.5 PRS, or 300 PRS, but I have one of each to play with, because the kids in the extended family are always curious about new cartridges - if they want to shoot ELDMs or Sierra bullets in any of those that’s their choice to make, and they will have a good understanding of the trade offs.

 

[MO Whitetails]

40 years ago I tried 85gr hollow points in my 243 on whitetail deer. I shot a buck at 100yds in the boiler room 5 times before it collapsed after traveling 100 yds. Been shooting a 7mm RM since that day using Nosler Partitions, no reason to change. My veteran elk guide when asked about preferred type of elk bullets, his first comment was: "do not use match grade bullets, only bullets designed for hunting". My guide shoots bonded but his boss shoots copper ttsx. Blow up bullets absolutely kill but if the angle is poor one can destroy entire quarters, straps, or tenders. Any bullet shot broadside into lungs will kill any big game. I prefer a bullet that can pass through shoulders and still exit. In October I shot a New Mexico bull elk at 130 yds 40ft above me. Quartering toward me, a low heart/lung shot was obstructed leaving only a high lung shot. 7mm RM w/160 Nosler AB w/65.5grains H4831sc did its job. One shot, bull ran 50 yds. Complete pass through. Zero bloodshot meat. With the high lung shot taken a blow up bullet would also have killed the bull but would likely have damaged or destroyed the backside tenderloin and backstrap. There are at least 3 companies selling non toxic fragmenting bullets which for me would be a better option than Bergers and Hornaday eldx explosive lead bullets. High BC has little effect under 400 yds. My 9.25 twist won't stabilize the longer high bc bullets at 800 ft elevation where I live but will above 5000ft. Considered Bergers classic hunter VLD. Shot placement is way more important than the bullet. I have always passed on poor shot opportunities. Clean humane kills are priority number one. Exploding bullets are effective and forgiving if shot placement is less than ideal. Any bullet can damage meat but blowup ones can destroy a hind quarter. Bonded bullets lose around 30%, fragments spun off, creating a larger wound channel as it passes through. But on the other hand, I lost a 170 in buck last year with a 150 partition while trotting broadside, Obviously I missed the heart. Good blood trail disappeared at 75yds. A week later the same round blew a mature buck heart in half. Still ran 30 yds. I was given good advice from a friend, as my elk tag was for any legal weapon: "You may only get one opportunity on a bull. Make sure you have a weapon that will get the job done in the most extreme circumstance"! I did and now have 210 lbs of meat in my freezer!