How often is 1 MOA "really" 1 MOA?

[Macintosh]

This thread is like The Love Boat—one show, 5 plots. Can I get a flow chart of the topics being discussed as they progress? My feeble mind cant take it.

 

[Harvey_NW]

 

[Shortschaf]

"Ethical hunting bullet" why cant some target bullets like an ELDM be ethical?

They can be every bit as ethical in certain instances.

The problem is that marketing personnel often have as much expertise in terminal ballistics as the average joe, AKA not a lot.

Turns out that the equation for "perfect hunting bullet" has more variables than just what the bullet construction is.

 

[Formidilosus]

For elk typical rule of thumb is 1,500# of energy and 2,000 fps for the bullet to open...am I missing something?

Yes. Bullets do not kill by ft-lbs of energy.


Read this in it entirety-

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

 

[2-Stix]

"Ethical hunting bullet" why cant some target bullets like an ELDM be ethical?

It can work, but that is not what it is made for. Hornady has podcasts on this topic so does Vortex's "10 min talks". A target, LR and hunting bullet have difference builds for that reason. Thin jackets for most target bullets that will blow apart at high velocities close range.

Why would you not use a hunting bullet for hunting? I am not talking about 100-150 yard shots on a doe. Many of the target bullets decenegrate on a elk at close range.

Its a target bullet...for targets. Theres no point to this discussion. Can a bullet work that is used for it not intended use, sure...but that is not a best practice. My shots are limited to the velocity and energy to ensure good ethical performance.

Whats I feel is right is to use a bullet intended for hunting, with 1500# for elk, 1000# for deer and 2000fps to open up. That is my matrix. That is what works for me and sets my perimeters.

I can be the laughing stock of the thread...but I feel that is a very safe way to go.

All I said was this is the typical rule of thumb I go by. I never said animals will not die otherwise. I won't die on any hill over this.

 

[svivian]

It can work, but that is not what it is made for. Hornady has podcasts on this topic so does Vortex's "10 min talks". A target, LR and hunting bullet have difference builds for that reason. Thin jackets for most target bullets that will blow apart at high velocities close range.

Why would you not use a hunting bullet for hunting? I am not talking about 100-150 yard shots on a doe. Many of the target bullets decenegrate on a elk at close range.

Its a target bullet...for targets. Theres no point to this discussion. Can a bullet work that is used for it not intended use, sure...but that is not a best practice. My shots are limited to the velocity and energy to ensure good ethical performance.

 

[2-Stix]

I can be wrong. Doesn't bother me. So educate me.

What matrix do you go in selecting a bullet, energy and velocity you want to see for a kill for deer and elk? As those are the measurable components.

 

[svivian]

I can be wrong. Doesn't bother me. So educate me.

What matrix do you go in selecting a bullet, energy and velocity you want to see for a kill for deer and elk? As those are the measurable components.

Yes. Bullets do not kill by ft-lbs of energy.


Read this in it entirety-

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

Why Match/Target Bullets For Hunting

Would you have any reservations about using the 168 TMK out of a .308 for an all-purpose hunting bullet? Not a bit. Actually the 168 or 175gr TMK would be my choice for a 308 bullet.

rokslide.com

as said before read....

 

[Antares]

I can be wrong. Doesn't bother me. So educate me.

What matrix do you go in selecting a bullet, energy and velocity you want to see for a kill for deer and elk? As those are the measurable components.

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/why-match-target-bullets-for-hunting.203770/

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

@svivian beat me to it.

 

[2-Stix]

Great. Im not a stubborn stuck my head in the sand guy.

I made a quick scan a few of these. The short of it...target is more accurate, opens a bigger wound channel, dumps the energy. I can understand that.

So what if your stuck with copper like I am? I hunt CA and then turn around and go out of state. I won't have different set up for that. So running the matrix is use...do you see an issue with it? Limiting my shot to the 2000fps with a barnes tsx, ttsx or lrx? And staying with 1500# for elk and 1000# for deer on energy?

 

[Formidilosus]

Great. Im not a stubborn stuck my head in the sand guy.

I made a quick scan a few of these. The short of it...target is more accurate, opens a bigger wound channel, dumps the energy. I can understand that.

So what if your stuck with copper like I am? I hunt CA and then turn around and go out of state. I won't have different set up for that. So running the matrix is use...do you see an issue with it? Limiting my shot to the 2000fps with a barnes tsx, ttsx or lrx? And staying with 1500# for elk and 1000# for deer on energy?

Dont “scan” them. Read the 223 thread in its entirety, every post. I could almost guarantee you that if you read the 223 for big game and match bullets for hunting thread, every single question you have will be answered.


Not being rude- you do not understand how bullets damage tissue. Ft-lbs of energy is not a sounding mechanism and is an absolute meaningless number. It does not tell you anything about how deep a bullet will penetrate, how wide the wound will be, or what the shape of the wound will be.

 

[2-Stix]

Dont “scan” them. Read the 223 thread in its entirety, every post. I could almost guarantee you that if you read the 223 for big game and match bullets for hunting thread, every single question you have will be answered.


Not being rude- you do not understand how bullets damage tissue. Ft-lbs of energy is not a sounding mechanism and is an absolute meaningless number. It does not tell you anything about how deep a bullet will penetrate, how wide the wound will be, or what the shape of the wound will be.

Understood and I will read them.

With that aside...whats your advise for the copper bullets? I am stuck with them, OR and WA will be heading there soon. I think it will make its way across the states in time unfortunately and most states will require it. Is there enough data to have a rule of thumb with a copper bullet?

My meat loss has sucked with them. The blood shot meat is pretty bad.

 

[Formidilosus]

Understood and I will read them.

With that aside...whats your advise for the copper bullets? I am stuck with them, OR and WA will be heading there soon. I think it will make its way across the states in time unfortunately and most states will require it. Is there enough data to have a rule of thumb with a copper bullet?

My meat loss has sucked with them. The blood shot meat is pretty bad.

That is answered in those threads, but the first thing I would say about hunting with copper is don’t. Next would be, of the commonly available bullets Barnes LRX’s are about as good as any. They will create relatively narrow wounds like all of them.

DRT, and G9 Defense brass bullets may be worth looking at. As well as the PVA Cayuga’s are “designed” to tumble, and if they do so reliably and consistently would result in much better wounds than ones that expand.

 

[SDHNTR]

It can work, but that is not what it is made for. Hornady has podcasts on this topic so does Vortex's "10 min talks". A target, LR and hunting bullet have difference builds for that reason. Thin jackets for most target bullets that will blow apart at high velocities close range.

Why would you not use a hunting bullet for hunting? I am not talking about 100-150 yard shots on a doe. Many of the target bullets decenegrate on a elk at close range.

Its a target bullet...for targets. Theres no point to this discussion. Can a bullet work that is used for it not intended use, sure...but that is not a best practice. My shots are limited to the velocity and energy to ensure good ethical performance.

Whats I feel is right is to use a bullet intended for hunting, with 1500# for elk, 1000# for deer and 2000fps to open up. That is my matrix. That is what works for me and sets my perimeters.

I can be the laughing stock of the thread...but I feel that is a very safe way to go.

All I said was this is the typical rule of thumb I go by. I never said animals will not die otherwise. I won't die on any hill over this.

Did you know that Berger’s target versions actually have THICKER jackets than their hunting bullets? That was an eye opener for me too!

 

[SDHNTR]

Great. Im not a stubborn stuck my head in the sand guy.

I made a quick scan a few of these. The short of it...target is more accurate, opens a bigger wound channel, dumps the energy. I can understand that.

So what if your stuck with copper like I am? I hunt CA and then turn around and go out of state. I won't have different set up for that. So running the matrix is use...do you see an issue with it? Limiting my shot to the 2000fps with a barnes tsx, ttsx or lrx? And staying with 1500# for elk and 1000# for deer on energy?

Massive amount of overanalysis. I’m in CA too. When I put bullets where they are supposed to go, animals die quickly. There’s really nothing more to it than that. If you don’t want to use certain bullets because you lack confidence in them, don’t. There’s plenty of bullet options these days. I’m also a detail guy, but this examination doesn’t need minutiae. Find an accurate bullet that works for you within legal constraints and what seems right in your mind, don’t be stupid with range and go hunting.

 

[2-Stix]

Did you know that Berger’s target versions actually have THICKER jackets than their hunting bullets? That was an eye opener for me too!

No I didn't. Sounds like I have limited information but I am working to expand that.

My family uncles and cousins have been hunting sense the 50's. But they are very old school and know very little about most of this. I hunted in the early 90s' with them then jumped back in 5 years ago.

Rokslide and some of its info is only consumed by a very small part of the hunting community. So I am learning a lot of this for the first time.

Thanks for the grace in process.

 

[SDHNTR]

No I didn't. Sounds like I have limited information but I am working to expand that.

My family uncles and cousins have been hunting sense the 50's. But they are very old school and know very little about most of this. I hunted in the early 90s' with them then jumped back in 5 years ago.

Rokslide and some of its info is only consumed by a very small part of the hunting community. So I am learning a lot of this for the first time.

Thanks for the grace in process.

I mean this with great respect…. Old school hunters, our fathers, uncles and grandfathers, who’ve been in the woods for 5-6+ decades are great resources on woodsmanship skills. And those skills are tremendously valuable! But in my experience they also have very limited understanding of ballistics, bullet construction, scope and rifle systems. Falling into the “I’ve done it this way for 50 years so it’s right” is a sure fire way to do things wrong. Listen intently to the old farts when they tell you how to track a big buck. Find other sources of ballistics info. A lot has changed in just the last few years.

 

[2-Stix]

I mean this with great respect…. Old school hunters who’ve been in the woods for many decades are great resources on woodsmanship skills. And those skills are tremendously valuable! But in my experience they also have very limited understanding of ballistics, bullet construction, scope and rifle systems. Falling into the “I’ve done it this way for 50 years so it’s right” is a sure fire way to do things wrong. Listen intently to the old farts when they tell you how to track a big buck. Find other sources of ballistics info. A lot has changed in just the last few years.

I get it. Blue jeans, flannels, savage axis, vortex diamondback scopes...and 100's and 100's of kills of all western game. I have my cousin working over to the info I am learning. He sees the value in most of it.

 

[BunnyThumper]

This year one of my goals was to get serious about improving my accuracy beyond what's "good enough" and into "what's possible". New rifle, more time at the range, considering getting into handloading, etc.

My question is this...when we talk about a 1 MOA rifle or a 1/2 MOA rifle, is that EVERY group? Most groups? Some groups? What the rifle is capable of, does every time, or an average?

Let's say you have a rifle and ammo combo you expect to shoot 1 MOA. If you're at the range shooting off a bipod and a rear bag, and you shoot 10 three-shot groups at 100 yards with a couple minutes cooling between each. Would you expect EVERY group to be 1 MOA? Half of them? More / less?

Certainly I would think a portion depends on the shooter's trigger control, proper breathing, shooting technique, etc. I've fully (and properly) broken in the barrel with my new rifle that carries a "sub-MOA" guarantee. ~125 rounds down range. I've shot groups as small as 0.40", and as big as 3.5" at 100 yards. If I shoot 10 groups during a range session with factory hunting ammo (Nosler Accubond, Federal Terminal Ascent, Barnes LRX), roughly half of them will be MOA or better and the other half are 1.5" to 2.0". Is that a sub-MOA rifle? Am I a poor shooter that needs to work more on his technique? Is that level of inconsistency normal? Would the rifle manufacturer be surprised by that and/or consider those results sub-par for "sub-MOA" guarantee?

Thanks for any thoughts on this...interested in feedback and responses from those much more experienced than I...

About as often as a 300” internet bull is actually a 300” bull…

 

[SDHNTR]

I get it. Blue jeans, flannels, savage axis, vortex diamondback scopes...and 100's and 100's of kills of all western game. I have my cousin working over to the info I am learning. He sees the value in most of it.

Savage Axis? Hahaha, hell no, that was like yesterday. Try Savage 99!