How often is 1 MOA "really" 1 MOA?

[CobraChicken]

You're overthinking it, just keep working on the fundamentals and keep shooting.

Agreed. All my rifles I ever bought were not 1 moa guarantee. With practice and good process, they got close and with the right loads they were under the "standard 1 moa"

 

[SouthPaw]

Factory Tikka 6.5cm low/right fouler then 20 shot group, 130tmk. The entire 21 shot group is 1.071moa.

Edit to clarify: This is just a larger sample and what looks 1moa to me per thread topic, not a POI zero target per @Formidilosus below...

 

[Formidilosus]

When I ask about zero targets, what @SDHNTR posted is what I mean. Not necessarily group size; I don’t care if they are 2 MOA, I mean the point of impact. He is inside 1 click in any direction of center. He’s not “about 2 inches high”, or “except for the called flyer”, or any other BS.

Statistically relevant shot groups sizes, centered over point of aim, and no extra BS shots on the target.

 

[SDHNTR]

Factory Tikka 6.5cm low/right fouler then 20 shot group, 130tmk. The entire 21 shot group is 1.071moa.

Edit to clarify: This is just a larger sample and what looks 1moa to me per thread topic, not a POI zero target per @Formidilosus below...

That’s pretty solid! Just put it on the bull.

 

[SDHNTR]

When I ask about zero targets, what @SDHNTR posted is what I mean. Not necessarily group size; I don’t care if they are 2 MOA, I mean the point of impact. He is inside 1 click in any direction of center. He’s not “about 2 inches high”, or “except for the called flyer”, or any other BS.

Statistically relevant shot groups sizes, centered over point of aim, and no extra BS shots on the target.

There’s even a clean to cleanish cold bore shot in at least a couple of those groups too.

 

[Lawnboi]

And it will essentially repeat somewhere in between those results every time. I wish all my guns were as cooperative.

It’s tough to shoot anything else when you get spoiled by a barrel or two like that.

 

[SDHNTR]

It’s tough to shoot anything else when you get spoiled by a barrel or two like that.

Well yes but touching off 78.5 gr of H1000 and 210 Bergers gets ‘spensive! And I’m getting dangerously low on unobtainable 215M’s!

 

[Formidilosus]

Factory Tikka 6.5cm low/right fouler then 20 shot group, 130tmk. The entire 21 shot group is 1.071moa.

Edit to clarify: This is just a larger sample and what looks 1moa to me per thread topic, not a POI zero target per @Formidilosus below...

Oh yeah. When someone is shooting 20 shot groups, they know how to zero.

 

[DangerRanger]

What’s the best method for 20 shot zero groups for finding a small place to aim? Are you dialing up and holding under the point to get a finer aim point? Or just holding where it should be after you blow the actual point out.

 

[amassi]

What’s the best method for 20 shot zero groups for finding a small place to aim? Are you dialing up and holding under the point to get a finer aim point? Or just holding where it should be after you blow the actual point out.

Can always use your reticle to bracket your poa


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[SDHNTR]

What’s the best method for 20 shot zero groups for finding a small place to aim? Are you dialing up and holding under the point to get a finer aim point? Or just holding where it should be after you blow the actual point out

When I’m shooting bullets, I usually hold the reticle where I want them to go.

 

[Macintosh]

I think he’s asking about how to best deal with shooting 20round groups when after the first 10 or 12 there is just a big ragged hole and no remaining dot to aim at.

 

[DangerRanger]

I think he’s asking about how to best deal with shooting 20round groups when after the first 10 or 12 there is just a big ragged hole and no remaining dot to aim at.

Yes.

I guess people just hold in the hole and approximate where their hold point was, seems off to me though as the whole point of the high round count zeros was to eliminate any variables possible I thought

 

[Formidilosus]

What’s the best method for 20 shot zero groups for finding a small place to aim? Are you dialing up and holding under the point to get a finer aim point? Or just holding where it should be after you blow the actual point out.

Well, you don’t need to shoot 20 shots for a zero; 20 shots starts giving you a real idea of total cone size. So they can be off the aiming point. 20-30 shot group shows you what size target the gun system really will hit. If you are going to shoot 20 shot groups to zero, 1.5” or 2” dot at 100 yards makes it easy to stay centered.

I generally do 10 round groups for zeroing.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yes.

I guess people just hold in the hole and approximate where their hold point was, seems off to me though as the whole point of the high round count zeros was to eliminate any variables possible I thought

You are conflating two things. High round count shot groups (20-30 shots) shows you the true cone of the gun and should be done at least once with every rifle so you know what the gun really does. Zeroing needs enough shots in a group to find the true average. 7-12 rounds is usually what it takes Sri have a high confidence factor with most rifles. Most are using 10 rounds for zeroing as it’s right in the middle of the required round counts, it’s even, and easy to remember. Also, it gives a good baseline to compare to.


20-30 shot group to see true cone size.

10 shot groups to zero.

 

[DangerRanger]

Thank you

 

[OKHunter84]

This year one of my goals was to get serious about improving my accuracy beyond what's "good enough" and into "what's possible". New rifle, more time at the range, considering getting into handloading, etc.

My question is this...when we talk about a 1 MOA rifle or a 1/2 MOA rifle, is that EVERY group? Most groups? Some groups? What the rifle is capable of, does every time, or an average?

Let's say you have a rifle and ammo combo you expect to shoot 1 MOA. If you're at the range shooting off a bipod and a rear bag, and you shoot 10 three-shot groups at 100 yards with a couple minutes cooling between each. Would you expect EVERY group to be 1 MOA? Half of them? More / less?

Certainly I would think a portion depends on the shooter's trigger control, proper breathing, shooting technique, etc. I've fully (and properly) broken in the barrel with my new rifle that carries a "sub-MOA" guarantee. ~125 rounds down range. I've shot groups as small as 0.40", and as big as 3.5" at 100 yards. If I shoot 10 groups during a range session with factory hunting ammo (Nosler Accubond, Federal Terminal Ascent, Barnes LRX), roughly half of them will be MOA or better and the other half are 1.5" to 2.0". Is that a sub-MOA rifle? Am I a poor shooter that needs to work more on his technique? Is that level of inconsistency normal? Would the rifle manufacturer be surprised by that and/or consider those results sub-par for "sub-MOA" guarantee?

Thanks for any thoughts on this...interested in feedback and responses from those much more experienced than I...

I have guns that after I broke them in and found the load or ammo they like will consistently shoot MOA groups. 1.047" for every hundred yards is MOA. If they can consistently do that for 3 or 5 shot groups then I'm good with it. I wouldn't call a gun MOA capable of it did one 3 shot group at 100 yards at 1" and never replicated that result again. You can usually tell if you're pulling a shot.

that being said I've asked guys at work or friends about their rifle and asked if they are shooting MOA and a lot of guys don't understand I don't think. A guy told me his 308 AR was definitely shooting MOA and when I asked how big his group was he said 3" or so at 25 yards.

 

[oldskool67]

First shot from a cold bore is the one that really counts for hunting accuracy

 

[Macintosh]

First shot from a cold bore is the one that really counts for hunting accuracy

Are you suggesting that is different than whats been written here, especially when groups are round like the ones pictured (as opposed to linear stringing)? If so, how do you suggest people predict the range of locations that 99.9/100 of their shots will impact within?
Personally, looking at notes from range sessions, assuming starting with a fouled bore, none of my rifles put the first shot outside the cone where the remainder of a bigger group goes, and the first shot doesnt even land predictably in the same location within the cone, so while I dont disagree in principle that the first shot is by far the most important, I’m not sure what to do with that other than stay aware of trends within my groups. Your thoughts?

 

[SDHNTR]

Cold bore flyers are a myth, at least in my experience. Those groups above all have cold bore shots. Most of them also have bare metal clean shots in there somewhere too.