How much magnification?

[user2026]

In my quest for a new hunting rifle, I'm not sure yet on a scope. The gun will be used from 20-400 ish yards on whitetail. I know that a simple 3-9 is plenty to shoot a deer at 400, but what about to id it? How much magnification do I need to tell between a doe and a spike at 400 yards? Obviously optical quality plays a big role, and in most of the scopes I'm looking at, the optical quality is fairly good, and none of them are far above/below the rest. Is a 3-10 enough, or should I go with 12x or 14x on the top end? I don't tend to carry binos for my type of hunting, and definitely not a spotting scope.

 

[SDHNTR]

You are using the wrong tool for the job.

 

[Macintosh]

Depends how small a spike you want to shoot.



^joke, sort of.
Seriously, at 400 yards differentiating between a doe vs a 2.5” spike (legal antlerless deer in my state if you have an antlerless tag) vs a 3.5” spike (legally an antlered deer that is not legal to take in many areas of my state) might actually be fairly optic intensive, more so than for a “buck hunter” who just needs to see antlers well above ears, and in most cases wont wind up in hot water if they misjudge. I dont know the answer. I think it will depend a lot on cover, background and what sort of rest is available. But in that situation Id probably want a tripod or very solid rest, combined with a bit of magnification. I dont like to use my scope for this sort of thing if Im not certain that its legal to shoot, but I think the comment about magnification helping and about a solid tripod or rest being important would apply to any optic. 400 yard shots arent a thing for me here, but I think in many cases like that I would not be able to differentiate a legal animal from an illegal one in that case and would end up needing to pass.

 

[SippyCup]

You are using the wrong tool for the job.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[43.6N]

I don't tend to carry binos for my type of hunting

Good time to start.
These ARE the right tool for the job.

And welcome to Rokslide btw

 

[Teo74]

I really like the concept of LPVO's on hunting rifles so most of mine are lower power. But I am also not making any real long shots either.

 

[Dave Thomas]

I think you'll be better served with a good set of binoculars.

 

[Johnwell]

Figure out at what distance you can identify a spike or doe with your naked eye; then go from there for magnification. With a scope, you’ll lose some resolution compared to naked eye.

For instance I can pretty easily see a spike vs a doe at ~50 yards, but I wouldn’t want to do target ID at 400 yards with a 3-9. It’s plenty to shoot with, but I don’t think I could see a 3” spike in low light.

A good set of binoculars goes a long ways compared to a rifle scope though. Something that costs more than a couple weeks worth of groceries in the 10-12x range would probably serve you better than just about any scope for target ID. Plus, then you aren’t pointing your rifle at unidentified objects.

 

[ElPollo]

I think a lot of people confuse what is optimal to find and identify game with what is optimal to effectively shoot deer. The two things are not the same. High magnification and clarity is really important in the former, but actually hinders your ability to get on target quickly and to be able to spot shots, follow game, and get off subsequent shots. Clarity of your optics is important in the former, but is less so in the latter.

Much of the desire for high magnification and alpha optics in riflescopes comes from shooting paper at the range. Once you actually practice in field conditions, those assumptions start to come apart. 6-10x on the top end is more than sufficient for the distances you are talking about, and more than that starts to become not so helpful.

The take-home is that you should spend your optics money on good glass for your binos and spotter and on reliability and durability for riflescopes.

 

[eric1115]

To pile on to the good advice you've already gotten here, quit pointing your rifle at things in order to identify them.

Get a decent pair of binos. They are the right tool for that job.

 

[Kyguy]

To pile on to the good advice you've already gotten here, quit pointing your rifle at things in order to identify them.

Get a decent pair of binos. They are the right tool for that job.

THIS

 

[Bugger]

I don’t leave the house without binos for ANY hunt no matter the distance. Even in the hardwoods you can see through the trees better with binos than with the naked eye. But as far as the magnification, you need stability more than extra power for sorting out does from spikes. It was a real problem when I was in TX on an MLDP property for a few years. Antlerless was considered anything less than 1” protruding. They always want more does killed but every year multiple people lost their buck tag by dropping a deer they didn’t see the tiny 1”+ spikes either behind the ears or against the brushy background. That made a lot of people refrain from considering a doe altogether. That’s where stabilized binos really came in clutch. Sure they’re not alpha glass and not great FOV for scanning, but you’ll know exactly what you’re looking at before making a decision. Definitely worth the $ if your buck tags are on the line.

As far as avoiding the spike in a group of does through the scope, that’s gonna vary a ton depending on the scenario and lighting, but I wouldn’t feel underpowered with 10x max on a stable rest at 400y.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

To pile on to the good advice you've already gotten here, quit pointing your rifle at things in order to identify them.

Get a decent pair of binos. They are the right tool for that job.

I’m going to die on the hill that there is nothing wrong with pointing your rifle at a “confirmed deer” to make the final decision as to whether you want to shoot it. To me, that’s a very different thing than “spotting with your rifle scope” or “looking to see if that is a deer or a bush or your dad with your rifle scope.”

I scan my surroundings with my eyes and my binoculars. I investigate “suspicious shapes” with my binoculars. But if a deer - not “something”, but a no-kidding deer - jumps up within 200 yards, I am looking at it with my rifle scope to decide if I want to shoot it. To me, that’s the only reasonable way to hunt where I hunt. I don’t have ten minutes to decide to take a shot. Most of the time I don’t have 10 seconds.

And, on topic of this thread, I don’t need “high magnification” to make that determination. In fact, it is outright detrimental to have “high magnification” in those circumstances. I hunt on the highest magnification my scope has (6x, 9x, or 10x) and, if I am using a variable, turn it down low for specific scenarios, like following a blood trail into very close terrain. I’ve yet to have a situation where 10x was too much or not enough magnification on a shot (although my ideal scope would be an SWFA fixed 8x).

 

[Matt5266]

Again recommending binos.... because what im hearing is your either not spotting many deer as you probably could because your trying to locate them with the naked eye. OR your scanning the hills with your rifle treating it like binos.

I've seen both many times. But ive had someone point a rifle at me more than once and I dont take very kindly to that

 

[eric1115]

I’m going to die on the hill that there is nothing wrong with pointing your rifle at a “confirmed deer” to make the final decision as to whether you want to shoot it. To me, that’s a very different thing than “spotting with your rifle scope” or “looking to see if that is a deer or a bush or your dad with your rifle scope.”

I scan my surroundings with my eyes and my binoculars. I investigate “suspicious shapes” with my binoculars. But if a deer - not “something”, but a no-kidding deer - jumps up within 200 yards, I am looking at it with my rifle scope to decide if I want to shoot it. To me, that’s the only reasonable way to hunt where I hunt. I don’t have ten minutes to decide to take a shot. Most of the time I don’t have 10 seconds.

And, on topic of this thread, I don’t need “high magnification” to make that determination. In fact, it is outright detrimental to have “high magnification” in those circumstances. I hunt on the highest magnification my scope has (6x, 9x, or 10x) and, if I am using a variable, turn it down low for specific scenarios, like following a blood trail into very close terrain. I’ve yet to have a situation where 10x was too much or not enough magnification on a shot (although my ideal scope would be an SWFA fixed 8x).

Do you think a "doesn't carry binos but is looking to shoot deer at 400" guy is only ever pointing his rifle at things that are already 100% confirmed to be deer with the naked eye? I get your point and strictly speaking I don't disagree with it, but it's not really addressing the situation OP is in. Maybe it's the difference between public land western hunting vs hunting your farm you have more control over who is on the property that causes us to have different perspectives, but it doesn't take very many times watching through binos as someone points a rifle your way to become pretty absolutist on this issue

I get if there are two bucks side by side making final determination through a rifle scope when shooting either one would be fine. I even get picking a doe out when they are milling around with spikes (as OP is talking about). But without binos he's talking about pointing his rifle at LOTS of things he will end up not wanting to shoot. Including things that are not deer, guaranteed. Lots of things 400 yards away "might" be deer with the naked eye.

I'll die on the hill that if for some reason the choice is magnified optics in your hands or on a rifle you should have binos and iron sights. If you can't see it well enough to shoot it without magnification you shouldn't point your gun at it.

It's like having a light on your CCW but not in your pocket. Lots of things need to be illuminated without having a gun pointed at them. I'll die on that hill too. Good flashlight in your pocket before you put one on your CCW.

 

[KenLee]

In my quest for a new hunting rifle, I'm not sure yet on a scope. The gun will be used from 20-400 ish yards on whitetail. I know that a simple 3-9 is plenty to shoot a deer at 400, but what about to id it? How much magnification do I need to tell between a doe and a spike at 400 yards? Obviously optical quality plays a big role, and in most of the scopes I'm looking at, the optical quality is fairly good, and none of them are far above/below the rest. Is a 3-10 enough, or should I go with 12x or 14x on the top end? I don't tend to carry binos for my type of hunting, and definitely not a spotting scope.

You don't keep a hammer in the truck?

 

[mt terry d]

I agree with always carrying binos regardless of open terrain vs thick brush/trees
but scoping a deer at 400 withit set at 15x gives more detail than my 10X binos.

I'd say if you have a doe tag and can't tell for sure with a 9x you may as well pass.
Try to get closer.

If it's trying to decide between 2 1/2" and 3" with a spotter you'll probably have to kill it first
to be positive. That's the most certain way.

 

[KenLee]

I agree with always carrying binos regardless of open terrain vs thick brush/trees
but scoping a deer at 400 withit set at 15x gives more detail than my 10X binos.

I'd say if you have a doe tag and can't tell for sure with a 9x you may as well pass.
Try to get closer.

If it's trying to decide between 2 1/2" and 3" with a spotter you'll probably have to kill it first
to be positive. That's the most certain way.

I am the ground checking champion

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Do you think a "doesn't carry binos but is looking to shoot deer at 400" guy is only ever pointing his rifle at things that are already 100% confirmed to be deer with the naked eye? I get your point and strictly speaking I don't disagree with it, but it's not really addressing the situation OP is in. Maybe it's the difference between public land western hunting vs hunting your farm you have more control over who is on the property that causes us to have different perspectives, but it doesn't take very many times watching through binos as someone points a rifle your way to become pretty absolutist on this issue

I get if there are two bucks side by side making final determination through a rifle scope when shooting either one would be fine. I even get picking a doe out when they are milling around with spikes (as OP is talking about). But without binos he's talking about pointing his rifle at LOTS of things he will end up not wanting to shoot. Including things that are not deer, guaranteed. Lots of things 400 yards away "might" be deer with the naked eye.

I'll die on the hill that if for some reason the choice is magnified optics in your hands or on a rifle you should have binos and iron sights. If you can't see it well enough to shoot it without magnification you shouldn't point your gun at it.

It's like having a light on your CCW but not in your pocket. Lots of things need to be illuminated without having a gun pointed at them. I'll die on that hill too. Good flashlight in your pocket before you put one on your CCW.

I agree with you that the person without binoculars or a spotter of some kind - or who has them but doesn’t use them - is probably doing some unsafe things.

On my own land, I have had hunters on the neighboring farms look at me through their scopes and I don’t like it one bit. “I am out here in the middle of a field on my own land wearing blaze orange, what is it you expect to learn from pointing a rifle at me?”

And I definitely agree about the CCW thing.

 

[Kyguy]

I’m going to die on the hill that there is nothing wrong with pointing your rifle at a “confirmed deer” to make the final decision as to whether you want to shoot it. To me, that’s a very different thing than “spotting with your rifle scope” or “looking to see if that is a deer or a bush or your dad with your rifle scope.”

I scan my surroundings with my eyes and my binoculars. I investigate “suspicious shapes” with my binoculars. But if a deer - not “something”, but a no-kidding deer - jumps up within 200 yards, I am looking at it with my rifle scope to decide if I want to shoot it. To me, that’s the only reasonable way to hunt where I hunt. I don’t have ten minutes to decide to take a shot. Most of the time I don’t have 10 seconds.

And, on topic of this thread, I don’t need “high magnification” to make that determination. In fact, it is outright detrimental to have “high magnification” in those circumstances. I hunt on the highest magnification my scope has (6x, 9x, or 10x) and, if I am using a variable, turn it down low for specific scenarios, like following a blood trail into very close terrain. I’ve yet to have a situation where 10x was too much or not enough magnification on a shot (although my ideal scope would be an SWFA fixed 8x).

I'm going to be judgy about the OP.... he's planning on using a rifle/scope as a spotting scope to scan an area.

I don't disagree with you on looking at confirmed animal through the scope.... the binoculars and spotting scope are used to confirm that it's an animal before putting the scope on it. I've been looked at through a scope before, myself... that's why I ALWAYS have binoculars or even just a monocular with me, I'm not doing that to someone else.