How do you get fuel canisters to your hunt.

[AK Troutbum]

It states on 40 miles website that they can not transport isobutane/propane fuel mixture. They can/do, however, transport the non-refillable 1 lb. propane bottles and white gas. I emailed them and asked why, still haven't heard back. I know that straight propane burns at colder temps than the iso/pro mixture, and that is the reason for propane being bottled in thicker steel containers. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that that is why they will transport propane (heavier duty packaging/bottles), but that doesn't answer the question as to why not refillable propane bottles.

 

[Ray]

To all users of isobutane canister stoves...
...The issue has to do with the DOT requirements for testing compressed gas cylinders and then certifying the containers. The Asian makers of isobutane cylinders don't care about their product meeting US DOT performance packaging standards. Consumers keep buying them so why should they care? DOT clarified their rules a few years ago and made it clear that they will start enforceing the rules on transporters through spot inspections. Some Asian makers have some of their cylinders tested; however, since the prime maker subcontracts the actual manufacture out to various low bidders, they can't say batch one is the same as batch two as they come from different facilities. It is not cost effective to have every batch tested. These cyliners do not meet DOT performance specificiations for passenger aircraft, and their makers will never go through the process to make that happen. The farthest they managed to get was to get their product to get excepted packaging status for freight only aircraft.

The 1-lb propane bottles are tested, certified, and marked as meeting DOT specifications. These cylinders are not designed to be refilled even though you can buy OTC devices to refill them for your own use. Refillable compressed gas cylinders have been illegal to be transported in commerce in the US for decades. You can transport it in your own car, but you cannot transport it in commerce and 40 mile is in commerce last time I was in their office.

The other issue that folks need to keep in mind specific to 40 Mile Air is that they operate under a Part 401 certificate that lumps all their aircaft under it. They operate a regularly scheduled passenger airline due to their flights between Tok and Fairbanks, plus their essential air service contract to villages and such. They have had the 401 certificate since forever, decades of sceduled passenger flights. Since they are a passenger air service and not a for hire Part 135 transporter they have very specific rules they have to follow. When a hazardous material regulation says that the item cannot be carried on a passenger aircraft it can't happen. Federal law trumps your needs. Even if you were willing to pay the tens of thousands of dollars in federal fines and pay the thousands in legal fees 40 Mile Air could incure if caught shipping your few bucks worth of jet boil fuel I doubt if they would let you. And you as the shipper of the fuel canister are also open to being fined tens of thousands of dollars. DOT does not care about your ounce shaving issues for your sheep hunt.

There are two options: $150 bucks or less for a white gas stove and a pound or two of liquid fuel or arrange to get 100LL avgas from a wing tank, or spend your vast personal fortune on paying DOT fines if caught by some jack booted government thug with his nose buried a foot deep into the CFR regulations. Pretty simple decision for me as I do not have much money sitting around growing stale with time. Pretty simple decision for 40 Mile as well as they would rather stay in business rather than lose all that money while the DOT bends them over.

If the air traveling backpack hunter wants this to change then use the process through whomever represents you in congress/senate and get them to write an exception clause to the laws that govern DOT. Don't forget to include a huge stack of cash campain fund donations to get their attention. That works for Native corporations and realestate developers up here in AK, so it should work for the rest of the US. Of course you being personaly inconvienced over an issue that is resovled with a $150 investment may not be all that important when compared to the safety of millions of daily airline passengers and the billions of dollars that involves. You could also try to convience 40 Mile air to give up more than half their income by selling off the Part 401 buisness and just providing Part 135 service out of Tok. I am sure they will listen carefully to your justifications for why they should throw away all that money for you and your jet boil.


PS: I have long sad career in hazmat and hazwaste shipping so I do come across as a preachy azzhole. If I have left anyone butt hurt with my above comments know this, I don't really care. Have a nice day.

 

[cbat]

I wasn't trying to get anyone to do anything they shouldn't. I was just asking a simple question as to what,s allowed.

 

[mtnclimber]

Not to take away from the thread, but in the case someone is in the situation where they need to bring a liquid fuel stove on their backpack sheep hunt, What is the lightest option out there?

Just preparing myself for when i draw TMA next year as planned

 

[Ray]

Not to take away from the thread, but in the case someone is in the situation where they need to bring a liquid fuel stove on their backpack sheep hunt, What is the lightest option out there?

Just preparing myself for when i draw TMA next year as planned

I went with a stove that could be used under other circumstances and took an MSR Whisperlite universal. It can use cannisters or liquid. The MSR whisperlite shaker is 3 to 4 oz lighter and is just a liquid stove. cheaper too. But it only burns white gas. the Whisperlite international allows for other liquid fuels, but not for cannister use. It may weigh the same as the shaker stove. Leaving all the extra fuel and cannister gear behind the universal may come in at 11oz. I'll have to weigh that some day. I weighed the full MSR fuel jug, but can't recall what that was. Never weighed it after the trip, but it was still half full after 30 plus uses.

If I was serious about lightness, but not burn time and over flame cooking - wanting just hot water - then I would look at an alcohol stove. Rather than a beer can DIY stove I would use a vargo decagon Ti alcohol stove. Does not do much in the winter or high elevation, but would work fine in TMA conditions. Just need a wind screen and an MSR kettle or large pot for two meals worth of water and coffee. And lots of fuel as both the puddle and the vapors burn off when lit.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

Ray thanks.
Solid info on the DOT and the different cert that 40MileAir runs on. That helps. I flew with them on my last moose hunt and they were a very good outfit. Plenty busy and efficient.

 

[luke moffat]

Not to take away from the thread, but in the case someone is in the situation where they need to bring a liquid fuel stove on their backpack sheep hunt, What is the lightest option out there?

Just preparing myself for when i draw TMA next year as planned

We just bought a stove that would burn AV gas. Then then when we landed we asked the pilot to fill up our bottle from the tank drains on the plane. Being as we were planning on being back there 18 days meant we filled up quite a few. Worked like a champ and saved us having any fuel weight for the flight in to count against our total of 50 pounds per person.

First time Leif (owner at 40 mile) had seen anyone ask to do that, and he was impressed and wanted to know which model stove that it was for himself to keep in the plane.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

Luke. I like that trick as well. Nice.

 

[Yellowknife]

My old MSR XGK II can do that Av Gas thing as well. A potentially handy thing, and a perk I expect to be using this summer.

The latest generation might be heavier, but my old XGK is actually identical in wt to the whisperlight. About 10 oz for just the stove as I recall and something like 12 or 12.5 oz for the stove + pump. There are lighter liquid stoves out there, but they are handicapped by heavier pumps, so it's about a wash in that regard. Even the extremely expensive Omnilite Ti isn't a noticeably lighter system when everything is included. All liquid stoves tend to be on they heavy side by modern standards, but I still like them in the right application.

Yk

 

[mtnclimber]

We just bought a stove that would burn AV gas. Then then when we landed we asked the pilot to fill up our bottle from the tank drains on the plane. Being as we were planning on being back there 18 days meant we filled up quite a few. Worked like a champ and saved us having any fuel weight for the flight in to count against our total of 50 pounds per person.

First time Leif (owner at 40 mile) had seen anyone ask to do that, and he was impressed and wanted to know which model stove that it was for himself to keep in the plane.

Thats not a bad idea!

I was more so complaining about having to carry a stove thats closer to 16 oz rather than my 2.5 oz luke moffat soto stove. But making the weight restriction would be hard as well, mostly because i like to leave some extras at the strip.

 

[Tekla]

I will be going up to happy valley to fly with mike in early aug and would be happy to bring some extra jetboil fuel. We Always give him our extra canisters when we get back also. Anyone going up to visit him here is a little tip. Bring him some firewood. He sure seems happy to have it and makes waiting at the strip a lot better. Always treated me right.