Hidden Alaska for Dall Sheep

[SLDMTN]

There is not a legal AK state moose season in 26C or 26B so I am not sure what you are posting here

Hit process on this report. The “antler” reference is a generic chart labeling. Every unit and every ram measured is input in these reports.

 

[DBMR]

Furthermore when going just off of the Eastern Brooks, it only holds 2.7% better average of non res success than 19C.

26B is primarily state land areas that have the same issues as 19C. Unlimited guides selling unlimited permits.
I'm not changing your mind, you're not changing my mind about 19C being a good thing it is closed and that non resident hunters dodging an overcrowded and low numbers of legal rams hunting experience out there. Statistics can be argued to prove a point on either side. It was done for years in keeping 19c open for the last decade and now it was used to close it down for 5 years. What changed Kyle?

If you feel so strongly about how great 19c is for a true wilderness uncrowded sheep hunt, how great the outfitters are out there operating, how it is allowed to be managed for an unlimited number of commercial outfits selling an unlimited number of permits to non residents, keep championing that management practice and lobby it to be opened back up to the previous status quo.

Ill keep encouraging change to a federal concession type management practice or its continued closure to non resident sheep hunts. In the meantime i will continue trying to educate the non resident sheep hunter of our two tier guiding regulations in this state between federal and state land and let them decide what is right for them for OTC sheep hunting opportunities. That is what this entire last two day conversation was started over because I let the author of this thread know he was better off not hunting with this outfitter because of the continued management practices our state has allowed to take place where this outfitter operates. And for him to look elsewhere. I gave him the quick version of the differences between the two options. If that is bad to do sorry........... but Ill continue in that direction.

 

[Chumsnagger]

FWIW, the 2022 19c sheep harvest was 26NR/ 3R. Success rates were similar to 2021 just fewer hunters. Stats came from slides at this years BOG meeting.

 

[SLDMTN]

26B is primarily state land areas that have the same issues as 19C. Unlimited guides selling unlimited permits.
I'm not changing your mind, you're not changing my mind about 19C being a good thing it is closed and that non resident hunters dodging an overcrowded and low numbers of legal rams hunting experience out there. Statistics can be argued to prove a point on either side. It was done for years in keeping 19c open for the last decade and now it was used to close it down for 5 years. What changed Kyle?

One guy in McGrath flipped his opinion and the BOG went this direction.

If you feel so strongly about how great 19c is for a true wilderness uncrowded sheep hunt, how great the outfitters are out there operating, how it is allowed to be managed for an unlimited number of commercial outfits selling an unlimited number of permits to non residents, keep championing that management practice and lobby it to be opened back up to the previous status quo.

I’ve made my opinion abundantly clear that change needs to be made across the state, not just 19C. Quotas, stats publishing, etc.

I’ll keep encouraging change to a federal concession type management practice or its continued closure to non resident sheep hunts. In the meantime i will continue trying to educate the non resident sheep hunter of our two tier guiding regulations in this state between federal and state land and let them decide what is right for them for OTC sheep hunting opportunities. That is what this entire last two day conversation was started over because I let the author of this thread know he was better off not hunting with this outfitter because of the continued management practices our state has allowed to take place where this outfitter operates. And for him to look elsewhere. I gave him the quick version of the differences between the two options. If that is bad to do sorry........... but I’ll continue in that direction.

Show me stats where Fed lands produce higher success as a blanket statement. That’s my entire point for this discussion. The stats aren’t there. You still haven’t answered what the success ratio was through your outfitter.

Show me where Fed sheep are bigger. Show me where Fed success is better. I’ll wait.

Your personal record is outstanding Steve, I have tremendous respect for that whether you believe that or not. I would recommend you as a guide to anyone looking for a sheep hunt.

Crapping on state land outfits as a blanket statement is the reason I’ve gone into the detail I have. There are guys who have only ever operated on state land that have at or near a flawless record, killing some of the biggest rams every single year. They’ve done so for generations.

I’m not championing 19C or crapping on Fed lands. If you read my posts that way, I’m sorry. My point with all of this is to look at each outfitter and the actual guide who’s taking you. Making a generalized statement is dishonest in both directions.

 

[SLDMTN]

I’ll even rule out the subunit you mentioned with unlimited operations. This is public info taken straight from ADFG.

RHAK doesn’t give a rip about the actual sheep, only who kills them.

 

[DBMR]

You'll be waiting a long time because I am not stating the outfitters I work for status on an open forum of their entire operation. Not going to happen. And to be honest, I don't know what it is the last few years. I am over 50 miles away from the outfitter that employees me. We have multiply camps and I only know the camp that I oversee is at, and that is 100 percent since I have been there the last 6 years for rifle hunters (I had one unsuccessful bow hunter in 2020 who came back last year with a rifle and was successful on day 2)

All guides on state land fall under the same land use rules. They have NO "ownership" in the lands they operate on because of the multiply commercial outfitters that can use that piece of ground bottom line. That is the root problem, so I can lump them all together. This is not personal. People tend to mix business and feelings together. We have a major issue with land use IMO due to overcrowding and prospective non residents should be made aware. There are plenty of state land outfits that are good but non residents need to be aware of the overcrowding issues that are there.

I can tell you that that the vast majority of complaints of how bad Alaska has become from unsuccessful non resident sheep hunters are from state land outfits. 50/50 will not state who they have hunted with on an open forum but 100 percent will through PM type messaging I have experienced. I honestly can't recall a Federal Land concession operation that had a complaint. I'm sure there are a couple I have forgotten over the past 12 years since I have been asking but at this time I cant remember.

 

[as.ks.ak]

You'll be waiting a long time because I am not stating the outfitters I work for status on an open forum of their entire operation. Not going to happen. And to be honest, I don't know what it is the last few years. I am over 50 miles away from the outfitter that employees me. We have multiply camps and I only know the camp that I oversee is at, and that is 100 percent since I have been there the last 6 years for rifle hunters (I had one unsuccessful bow hunter in 2020 who came back last year with a rifle and was successful on day 2)

All guides on state land fall under the same land use rules. They have NO "ownership" in the lands they operate on because of the multiply commercial outfitters that can use that piece of ground bottom line. That is the root problem, so I can lump them all together. This is not personal. People tend to mix business and feelings together. We have a major issue with land use IMO due to overcrowding and prospective non residents should be made aware. There are plenty of state land outfits that are good but non residents need to be aware of the overcrowding issues that are there.

I can tell you that that the vast majority of complaints of how bad Alaska has become from unsuccessful non resident sheep hunters are from state land outfits. 50/50 will not state who they have hunted with on an open forum but 100 percent will through PM type messaging I have experienced. I honestly can't recall a Federal Land concession operation that had a complaint. I'm sure there are a couple I have forgotten over the past 12 years since I have been asking but at this time I cant remember.

See Steve, what you just said is a major part of the problem. You don’t want to broadcast over the forum the outfits entire statistical status…if you truly want to pimp your stats or “your camp’s stats”, that’s great. But why hide the rest?

I say make every outfit licensed in the state required to publish their hunter statistics. You want to truly do things right, make all the outfitters guiding sheep release how many hunters they took and how many were successful each and every year. That’ll weed out the problem children right there.

But you picking and choosing which numbers you want to shout from the roof top and then not disclosing all the information regarding Aaron’s entire outfit just to make it a better selling point is just as immoral as taking clients on camping trips with guns.

Your whole argument sure makes it seem like you’re only telling 1/2 of the story.


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[DBMR]

See Steve, what you just said is a major part of the problem. You don’t want to broadcast over the forum the outfits entire statistical status…if you truly want to pimp your stats or “your camp’s stats”, that’s great. But why hide the rest?

I say make every outfit licensed in the state required to publish their hunter statistics. You want to truly do things right, make all the outfitters guiding sheep release how many hunters they took and how many were successful each and every year. That’ll weed out the problem children right there.

But you picking and choosing which numbers you want to shout from the roof top and then not disclosing all the information regarding Aaron’s entire outfit just to make it a better selling point is just as immoral as taking clients on camping trips with guns.

Your whole argument sure makes it seem like you’re only telling 1/2 of the story.


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Did you not read that I don't know. It is not my outfit and i am not in a position to advertise those numbers either. I just am 100 percent on rifle sheep hunts in my camp. That is not "pimping" anything.

Where am I advertising where these non residents should spend their money at? I have never mentioned in this thread were I guide out of. We don't need clients at all and we are booked out 4 plus years with a majority repeat customers. Like most all federal concessioned areas in Alaska. These hunts sell themselves even with the $10K more in costs then state land overcrowded hunts. When non residents are given the un biased truth between the two style of hunts it is not even a contest.

Push that reporting requirement if you think that will help. But compelling any business' to do that is a far over reaching government requirement that would never stand legal scrutiny. But my future outfit will do just that and I agree with the idea just not mandated.

Again if you want to champion 19c and other state land fiascos and the unlimited mess in those areas, be my guest.

 

[as.ks.ak]

Steve. NO ONE is championing 19C. Good lord.


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[DBMR]

Steve. NO ONE is championing 19C. Good lord.


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Ok.......what are you doing? I am pointing out the server problems out there in 19C for non residents to even consider booking hunts. Are there good outfits there? Yes plenty. Are there bad ones? Plenty. A good outfitter who runs a good business' and is a good guide still has their hands tied when they operate in areas that have the potential of numerous other outfits out in their areas.

It is a moot point at this time becasue AK BOG did the right thing.

 

[AlaskaMark]

The ironic thing about this whole conversation is that I’d bet that 9/10 people banging the RHAK drum for closure didn’t even know this was a thing.

Kyle, wanted to offer a correction to the above. RHAK never proposed or supported a complete closure prior to the board-generated proposal to shut down 19C for all sheep hunting for 5 years. All of our proposals were to go to draw-only hunts for nonres with a limited allocation of permits. We sure did, however, tell the board that residents should not be shut down in 19C with the vast majority of the harvest continually going to nonres sheep hunters, and we asked for an amendment to the board proposal to limit nonres only, not completely shut them out.

Re 2022 sheep stats for 19C, they are included with those below, from data from ADFG.
Unit 19C Sheep Harvest

Year	Nonresident​	Resident​	Total​	%Nonresident​
2018	79​	39​	118​	67%​
2019	75​	39​	114​	66%​
2020	54​	14​	68​	79%​
2021	34​	6​	40​	85%​
2022	26​	3​	29​	90%​

 

[SLDMTN]

Kyle, wanted to offer a correction to the above. RHAK never proposed or supported a complete closure prior to the board-generated proposal to shut down 19C for all sheep hunting for 5 years. All of our proposals were to go to draw-only hunts for nonres with a limited allocation of permits. We sure did, however, tell the board that residents should not be shut down in 19C with the vast majority of the harvest continually going to nonres sheep hunters, and we asked for an amendment to the board proposal to limit nonres only, not completely shut them out.

Re 2022 sheep stats for 19C, they are included with those below, from data from ADFG.
Unit 19C Sheep Harvest

Year	Nonresident​	Resident​	Total​	%Nonresident​
2018	79​	39​	118​	67%​
2019	75​	39​	114​	66%​
2020	54​	14​	68​	79%​
2021	34​	6​	40​	85%​
2022	26​	3​	29​	90%​

That comment was more directed at most folks not knowing there’s essentially private land hunts via native owned concessions. Areas that would otherwise be hard park, not open to residents without a permit or shareholder status.

The 2022 harvest results show nothing other than guides got it done. Basing an argument solely off of that statistic is saying we don’t care how many sheep get killed, only who kills them.

 

[Clarktar]

So, who should I book with in 19c?

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[SLDMTN]

So, who should I book with in 19c?

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FFS Clark

You’ll have your pick of transporters. Find one that can carry your stir stick.

 

[Clarktar]

FFS Clark

You’ll have your pick of transporters. Find one that can carry your stir stick.

A person can only spectate for so long!! Felt like a little humor break could be called for. Back to normal programming now.

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[AlaskaMark]

FYI, the 19C closure isn't a done deal, the BOG is going to hold a special meeting to reconsider (delay) the nonres sheep closure and possibly submit their own proposal to delay the closure a year.

The 2022 harvest results show nothing other than guides got it done. Basing an argument solely off of that statistic is saying we don’t care how many sheep get killed, only who kills them.

Seriously, Kyle, guides got it done? Would you expect any different when you put unlimited "professional hunters" out there with unlimited clients with the going price of a guided sheep hunt? We all are concerned how many sheep get killed. But when there are calls for a complete sheep hunting closure from guides with longtime experience in 19C and you look at the harvest stats and see whose taking most all of the sheep...well man if you don't see the resident frustration I can't sway ya.

 

[SLDMTN]

FYI, the 19C closure isn't a done deal, the BOG is going to hold a special meeting to reconsider the nonres sheep closure and possibly submit their own proposal to delay the closure a year.



Seriously, Kyle, guides got it done? Would you expect any different when you put unlimited "professional hunters" out there with unlimited clients with the going price of a guided sheep hunt? We all are concerned how many sheep get killed. But when there are calls for a complete sheep hunting closure from guides with longtime experience in 19C and you look at the harvest stats and see whose taking most all of the sheep...well man if you don't see the resident frustration I can't sway ya.

Mark I’ve stated ad nauseam that I want to see change implemented. If you boys can’t pick up on that you aren’t listening, you’re just waiting for your turn to talk.

 

[alexanderg23]

So, who should I book with in 19c?

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I killed a sheep once. Coolest thing I ever done did.

 

[Pmarquard]

Count your blessings that the AK BOG has voted to shut this area down for 5 years. You have saved yourself a lot of heartache and cash that you can use towards a quality outfit and area WITHIN ALASKA. Look into areas in the state of AK that have federal concessions........ie one outfitter permitted to operate on set land use boundaries that can only sell a set amount of permits. This particular outfitter you were referencing in your thread could sell an UNLIMTED number of sheep hunts and there could legally be an unlimited number of other outfitters doing the SAME thing from the same access air strip hunting the same surrounding mountains. Hard to believe but that is the truth in most of 19c as well. Something these "outfitters" conveniently fail to mention or are too ignorant in our guiding laws that they hold a license in!!

Too many outfitters is not the sole reason GMU 19C went to horrible harvestable ram numbers but it was a huge contributing factor.

AK gets a bad rap for our sheep hunts but that comes from the uneducated blurring the two distinct different guiding tiers we have here in AK..........State land vs Federal Land. Most of these uneducated have no clue......and I don't blame them because it really is hard to believe we operate like this in Alaska.

For example the majority of the NE Brooks range concessions are enjoying great hunter success even with the same past winters that have taken a toll on our sheep too (and BTW the NWT and the Yukon are experiencing these same killer winters as we are in AK). The big difference on these NE Brooks Range Federal concessions is we don't have an unlimited number of outfitters selling an unlimited number of sheep tags. And most of these outfitters are concerned with conservations instead of the mentality "if I don't shoot that sub par barely legal ram that next outfitter will". We have a lot of skin in the game keeping our huntable harvestable rams in a healthy age/size range, This is the exact same model the top outfitters in the NWT and the Yukon operate on as well.

I try to educate as many unsuspecting non resident hunters as I can concerning this. Both online and in person at the numerous trade shows I attend every year. I am not PC or afraid to call out these "outfitters" or the policies they adhere too either. I have been pointing out the issues in 19c for decades and here we are now..........closed down for non residents. Again mother nature was the majority at fault of our sub par harvestable ram numbers in 19c. But these unlimited outfitters didn't help.

I am glad you will have to find a different area. It might not seem like it now but it is a blessing when you look at it logically. Good luck in your search. I can gladly give you an unbiased opinion on outfitters tailored to what you are looking for too.

Hello and thank you for your detailed post . If you dont mind, could you recommend any good outfitters for a 2027 Dall Sheep hunt. Thank you ! Paul M

 

[cbeard64]

All I know is that as a NR, I wouldn’t touch AK with a 10 foot pole these days.

I have no doubt that some areas and outfitters are better than others, but trying to digest everything I read and research about the current state of things and distill it down into reliable information to book a hunt on seems an impossible task. Even knowledgeable residents can’t seem to agree on many things except that AK sheep populations have taken a big hit.