Help me understand the reasoning of modern optics

[cocky84]

Almost all my hunting is done with archery and what rifle hunting i do is either with thermal or traditional sfp scopes, so i am not well educated in modern rifles or optics. I started looking into getting a modern scope and i see stuff that just doesn’t make any sense to me. Can you help me answer these questions? Im obviously missing something.

My number one question is why are there hunting scopes with exposed turrets that do not lock?

Second question

A FFP scopes entire purpose is so your ballistic reticle maintains the same drop no matter what magnification you are on? So to me that means you will be compensating bullet drop using the reticle, but 99.9% of FFP scopes have exposed turrets. Therefore if it has exposed turrets, you are dialing elevation and windage, and the FFP reticle not only becomes useless, but now is cluttering up view more so than a duplex.

In my mind a scope with exposed turrets is suited for a sfp duplex reticle and a ffp would be suited for capped turrets and probably illuminated reticle.

To me the leupold cds-zl with windplex makes perfect sense to me. Exposed locking elevation turret , so there is nothing in the reticle for elevation holdover. Capped windage turret so there are marks for windage. And it is sfp so therefore marks will change depending on magnification but if im shooting at a distance that im having to hold for wind, im more than likely on max power anyways.

Now i am only talking about hunting scopes. I can see where shooting prs, its helpful to have as many options as possible and not as big of a deal for non locking turrets.

Imo the vx-5hd zl-2 3-15 with windplex and firedot is the perfect hunting scopes minus one major factor. Its a unreliable pos.
Why doesn’t Trij or NF do something similar?
If Trij had locking turrets on credo id put them on all my guns.

Surely im missing something?

 

[Kurts86]

Dial elevation and hold windage is the most common shooting theory with modern optics. That is what drives the value of FFP with exposed elevation.

The value of locking turrets is overstated but the biggest problem is that Leupold has intellectual property that limits its proliferation in the market.

 

[Article 4]

I think in theory you are correct and let me add:

• FFP scopes are a legacy function that goes back a long ways, I don't know how long but I surmise 30-40 years. Many of us have been shooting them for a long time and we use the functionality of the turrets and the sub-tensions
• Having the option of being able to utilize both is why the scopes are set up that way. IME i have used the subs in light wind and quick shot scenarios out to about 500 yards and in comps, quite a bit farther for first and follow up shots. I find that in certain rifles once my dope is validated, the subs are spot on and allows me keep on the critter and connected with the rifle without dialing
• If you run a SFP, you will never have the option at longer distances
• Holdover: reticle hash marks (MOA or Mil) always represent the same value at any magnification level, allowing for quick and accurate holdovers at different distances without needing to recalculate based on zoom.
• Reticle size: the reticle size changing with magnification can sometimes be a drawback at close range, where the reticle might appear too large and obstruct the target.
• If you plan on competing long-range, precise holdovers are crucial.
• If the wind changes a small amount during your pre shot routine, no need to redial, use a sub.

 

[cocky84]

Dial elevation and hold windage is the most common shooting theory with modern optics. That is what drives the value of FFP with exposed elevation.

The value of locking turrets is overstated but the biggest problem is that Leupold has intellectual property that limits its proliferation in the market.

Sure yeah i can totally understand the dial elevation and hold windage. Makes sense that would be the best balance of speed and accuracy. But then why need elevation marks in the reticle? And why need ffp on lowish (15x and under) magnification scopes? I would think that an animal at any distance that would require compensating for wind would be at max magnification anyways?

 

[cocky84]

I think in theory you are correct and let me add:

• FFP scopes are a legacy function that goes back a long ways, I don't know how long but I surmise 30-40 years. Many of us have been shooting them for a long time and we use the functionality of the turrets and the sub-tensions
• Having the option of being able to utilize both is why the scopes are set up that way. IME i have used the subs in light wind and quick shot scenarios out to about 500 yards and in comps, quite a bit farther for first and follow up shots. I find that in certain rifles once my dope is validated, the subs are spot on and allows me keep on the critter and connected with the rifle without dialing
• If you run a SFP, you will never have the option at longer distances
• Holdover: reticle hash marks (MOA or Mil) always represent the same value at any magnification level, allowing for quick and accurate holdovers at different distances without needing to recalculate based on zoom.
• Reticle size: the reticle size changing with magnification can sometimes be a drawback at close range, where the reticle might appear too large and obstruct the target.
• If you plan on competing long-range, precise holdovers are crucial.
• If the wind changes a small amount during your pre shot routine, no need to redial, use a sub.

that makes good sense. Options are always a good thing. I guess it just seems to me that almost all scopes are somewhat a crossover into competition shooting and so few are dedicated to hunting. Obviously im not talking about the good ole sfp duplex capped turret scopes, there are plenty of those.
Im just surprised, or disappointed that more good companies dont offer something like the cds-zl windplex.
I guess im too simple minded. In my mind if im buying exposed turrets, im dialing at anything at a distance. If im buying ffp, im learning my holdovers in the reticle and im using them at anything at a distance.
But i also do understand having both can relate to, how much time do i have to get the shot off. Thats were i see your point of having the option for either is handy.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

-Zero stop (or revolution marks) generally addresses the need for a lock but its not as foolproof since you need to verify. Turrets spin minimally while packing around but they can move some. A caped or locking windage is ideal imho but electrical tape can "lock" a windage turret easily if needed.

-"I would think that an animal at any distance that would require compensating for wind would be at max magnification anyways?" ABSOLUTELY NOT, which is one of the limitations on sfp scopes. The field of view is narrow and harder to stay on the animal in recoil, eye placement in the eyebox is worse, etc. Most of the time my zoom is probably in the 6-8x range on shots on game.

-A FFP reticle on any magnification provides useful input, If you see an impact .5mil low in the reticle its .5mil low in the turret too no matter the zoom, you can hold or dial a correction with zero regard to what magnification you're on.

 

[Kurts86]

Sure yeah i can totally understand the dial elevation and hold windage. Makes sense that would be the best balance of speed and accuracy. But then why need elevation marks in the reticle? And why need ffp on lowish (15x and under) magnification scopes? I would think that an animal at any distance that would require compensating for wind would be at max magnification anyways?

Elevation marks are still helpful to measure misses. I agree that they are less useful than windage marks but they are present on most all reticles except for the Swarovski 4W off the top of my head.

You will find everyone has a maximum power cutoff for FFP being required but I’ve heard anywhere from 6x-12x being the max power cutoff for SPF. My personal cutoff is 10x because I still have a 4mm exit pupil with a 40mm objection. I still run a SFP NXS 2.5-10x42 and it’s fine for me.

With a 15x 44mm scope the exit pupil in low light the exit pupil is below 3mm. 4-5mm is often needed to shoot at last light. Which means shooting at 10x with hash mark values off by 50%.

FFP scopes apply a lot more to western hunt than eastern hunts. They are not yet developed into a 100% solution and they are still the wrong choice from 90% of hunters across the US. It just happens the good shooters and serious western hunters have found value in them for certain situations.

 

[cocky84]

-Zero stop (or revolution marks) generally addresses the need for a lock but its not as foolproof since you need to verify. Turrets spin minimally while packing around but they can move some. A caped or locking windage is ideal imho but electrical tape can "lock" a windage turret easily if needed.

-"I would think that an animal at any distance that would require compensating for wind would be at max magnification anyways?" ABSOLUTELY NOT, which is one of the limitations on sfp scopes. The field of view is narrow and harder to stay on the animal in recoil, eye placement in the eyebox is worse, etc. Most of the time my zoom is probably in the 6-8x range on shots on game.

-A FFP reticle on any magnification provides useful input, If you see an impact .5mil low in the reticle its .5mil low in the turret too no matter the zoom, you can hold or dial a correction with zero regard to what magnification you're on.

I agree with your points.
i guess i never really thought about it as using a reticle to see where you are missing but that pretty much goes back to target shooting. I know that it can certainly happen in hunting situations also.
Im still just having a hard time seeing much benefit in having elevation dials and a holdover reticle. Could definitely see ffp windplex being useful with a capped windage turret. But id say it just comes down to hunting style and im obviously the oddball.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I agree with your points.
i guess i never really thought about it as using a reticle to see where you are missing but that pretty much goes back to target shooting. I know that it can certainly happen in hunting situations also.
Im still just having a hard time seeing much benefit in having elevation dials and a holdover reticle. Could definitely see ffp windplex being useful with a capped windage turret. But id say it just comes down to hunting style and im obviously the oddball.

In the target realm it can be rather handy for making zeroing adjustments but in that situation a good SFP reticle would work too. Biggest thing for me always comes back to the hash marks are ALWAYS the distance of the hash regardless of the zoom, whether its target practice or hunting. Its one thing I never have to think about anymore.

 

[Kurts86]

i guess i never really thought about it as using a reticle to see where you are missing but that pretty much goes back to target shooting.

Spotting your shots when hunting solo is super critical so you know what happened and know how to react. Correcting follow up shots is part of this. This also comes down to recoil management, shooting manageable sized cartridges and backing off the scope power so your field of view is bigger.

Dialing is also a much more efficient work flow with on board ballistics on most rangefinders today. You range a target, get an elevation call 1/2 second later then dial, call wind and shoot.

If you are happy with maximum point blank range, a duplex reticle and a 250 yard max range you can ignore the rest and go second focal plane.

 

[cocky84]

In the target realm it can be rather handy for making zeroing adjustments but in that situation a good SFP reticle would work too. Biggest thing for me always comes back to the hash marks are ALWAYS the distance of the hash regardless of the zoom, whether its target practice or hunting. Its one thing I never have to think about anymore.

I 100% agree with that. I think that would be the way to go for hunting. You memorize your hash mark distances and you are ready to go no matter what mag you are on. Be the quickest way to be accurate in hunting situations. But then I don’t see a use for having an exposed turret that has a chance of being rolled while on your pack.
I can certainly see where there are guys who want both and can see by your points that there is a use for both. Im am surprised however that in this flooded market of scopes that there are only a couple out of thousands of models being offered in ffp capped turrets.
I feel like the vx-3 and vx-5 with locking cds are the two most popular models out there. And the windplex reticle being one of the more poplar reticles aside from duplex obviously. With that much demand im really surprised other companies dont do something like it. And im sure there is, i just haven’t came across it.

 

[TaperPin]

My number one question is why are there hunting scopes with exposed turrets that do not lock?

Many times after a week in the high country and or timber, my scopes have had rubs, bark imbedded in the capped turret knurling, scratches, and whatnot that were a mystery. Obviously, during active hunting with 500 rifle movements and adjustments a day up down and around, scopes make more contact with objects than we realize, or at least scopes used to. . .

. . . Today, thanks in large part to marketing, more time shooting and less time hunting, scopes are no longer rubbed against things - it’s like a real life Catholic miracle, blessed by the Pope himself - any day any day Saint Tacticool will appear in the stained glass holding a giant buck. There is a modern idea of hunting where a guy simply sits up high glassing while an animal way out there stands broadside, and Saint Tacticool smacks it with the help of a spotter, because you can’t make a first shot hit without a spotter - there is no need to have a stock design that’s comfortable to hold, and if you’re not holding it, the scope can’t hit anything. Big knobs are a must - as if they are more immune to movement. Every rugged dude has a proper photo perched atop a ridge watching a shooting lane with the rifle safe and sound resting on the bipod and rear bag, as if a short bipod is easy to use with the many random shooting angles, elevations, and supports the mountains provide.

It makes me wonder as well, but these kids must know what they are doing, just like we did, and our fathers, and their fathers, and everyone before them. Lol

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I don’t wanted a capped elevation. I dial for most shots.

In reality over the years an elevation turret gets spun very little on a pack and is easy enough to check despite not being fool proof like a lock is.

 

[SDHNTR]

Sure yeah i can totally understand the dial elevation and hold windage. Makes sense that would be the best balance of speed and accuracy. But then why need elevation marks in the reticle? And why need ffp on lowish (15x and under) magnification scopes? I would think that an animal at any distance that would require compensating for wind would be at max magnification anyways?

Your thinking isn’t exactly wrong. Your quantification of max power is getting there though. 15x is more than enough for any range, even 1000 yds. The problem is high mag shrinks field of view. You can’t see hits, can’t see where an animal goes after the shot, and targets are hard to reacquire after recoil. So FFP makes sense because you don’t have to be at max power, thus not limiting fov, in order to use wind holds. You could also make an argument that SFP with a max mag of 10-12x would work too since you aren’t shrinking fov that much at that power. Go over 15x though, and you definitely are.

You also make some valid points about hashmarks on the vertical wire of the reticle. I don’t use them either. I’ve always thought the Leupold Windplex and Swaro 4W were ideal reticles since they are so simple and clean with horizontal hashes and none on the vertical. But unfortunately, the scopes with those reticles just suck otherwise! So like anything else, there are tradeoffs.

Also, a turret turning is a fear that doesn’t really happen. They are stiff enough to where they really don’t twist unintentionally. And if you’re really worried about it, two ways to handle the matter: 1. Train yourself to make a quick visual check of the turret before immediate use, or 2. Use a simple wrap of electrical tape.

 

[Mojave]

Rifle scope peak current development to me is:

1. THLR type reticle, Vortex Razors have a similar one, but I don't like that scope.
2. FFP (this is actually older than 30-40 years, it was the norm in Europe when they started using 30mm scopes way back when. Schmidt Bender shipped Precision Marksman riflescopes to American and made it normal. Now it is considered to be mandatory.
3. Bottom magnification 2-5 per. Top magnification 18-30 power.
4. Preferred diameter is 30mm, but begrudgingly I'll take a 34mm. Most all of my scopes are 34 or 36mm, I am ready for a weight loss plan.
5. There is a Revic that meets these criteria, but I have not ordered one yet. A lot of other scopes do as well.

 

[cocky84]

Your thinking isn’t exactly wrong. Your quantification of max power is getting there though. 15x is more than enough for any range, even 1000 yds. The problem is high mag shrinks field of view. You can’t see hits, can’t see where an animal goes after the shot, and targets are hard to reacquire after recoil. So FFP makes sense because you don’t have to be at max power, thus not limiting fov, in order to use wind holds. You could also make an argument that SFP with a max mag of 10-12x would work too since you aren’t shrinking fov that much at that power. Go over 15x though, and you definitely are.

You also make some valid points about hashmarks on the vertical wire of the reticle. I don’t use them either. I’ve always thought the Leupold Windplex and Swaro 4W were ideal reticles since they are so simple and clean with horizontal hashes and none on the vertical. But unfortunately, the scopes with those reticles just suck otherwise! So like anything else, there are tradeoffs.

Also, a turret turning is a fear that doesn’t really happen. They are stiff enough to where they really don’t twist unintentionally. And if you’re really worried about it, two ways to handle the matter: 1. Train yourself to make a quick visual check of the turret before immediate use, or 2. Use a simple wrap of electrical tape.

I see the points on the positives of ffp. I had never really thought about dialing in zero with exposed turrets then using reticle to track misses. Ffp definitely a must for that.
I will have to disagree on the turrets not spinning though. Last elk hunt i went on with a rifle was in Wyoming and i was using a vx3 cds. It rubbed on my pack until it was maxed out. I did not know what revolution it was on so had to go and double check. I did catch it before i took a shot at anything and then it received gorilla tape.
I would think all scope manufacturers would want locks just because there are way more guys like me who wont buy a scope because it doesn’t have locking turrets than there are guys who wont buy a scope because it does have locking turrets.

 

[SDHNTR]

I see the points on the positives of ffp. I had never really thought about dialing in zero with exposed turrets then using reticle to track misses. Ffp definitely a must for that.
I will have to disagree on the turrets not spinning though. Last elk hunt i went on with a rifle was in Wyoming and i was using a vx3 cds. It rubbed on my pack until it was maxed out. I did not know what revolution it was on so had to go and double check. I did catch it before i took a shot at anything and then it received gorilla tape.
I would think all scope manufacturers would want locks just because there are way more guys like me who wont buy a scope because it doesn’t have locking turrets than there are guys who wont buy a scope because it does have locking turrets.

That’s because that Leupold is a POS. A good scope has a turret that is stiff enough to where that doesn’t happen. My scopes have been carried on my pack for hundreds if not thousands of miles, and on ATVs, boats, small planes, horse scabbards, they’ve never turned unless I twisted them. But I also don’t use Leupolds.

And yes, you can use the reticle to track misses, but I think you missed my greater point regarding FOV. With a sfp scope and some wind, you will need to be on max power to use the wind holds. That means shrunken FOV. You shoot, recoil blows you out of view (because of that small FOV) then by the time you get back on target that animal is no longer there. Did it run left or right, did it drop and is it laying in the brush below, is it crippled somewhere? What happened? You need this info, and because of your high mag SFP scope you have no idea.

Vice an FFP scope at lower power, yet still enabling you to use the necessary wind holds, and providing more fov. You watch that buck fold in the scope and know he’s laying dead in the brush below. Mission accomplished.

 

[cocky84]

That’s because that Leupold is a POS. A good scope has a turret that is stiff enough to where that doesn’t happen. My scopes have been carried on my pack for hundreds if not thousands of miles, and on ATVs, boats, small planes, horse scabbards, they’ve never turned unless I twisted them. But I also don’t use Leupolds.

And yes, you can use the reticle to track misses, but I think you missed my greater point regarding FOV. With a sfp scope and some wind, you will need to be on max power to use the wind holds. That means shrunken FOV. You shoot, recoil blows you out of view (because of that small FOV) then by the time you get back on target that animal is no longer there. Did it run left or right, did it drop and is it laying in the brush below, is it crippled somewhere? What happened? You need this info, and because of your high mag SFP scope you have no idea.

Vice an FFP scope at lower power, yet still enabling you to use the necessary wind holds, and providing more fov. You watch that buck fold in the scope and know he’s laying dead in the brush below. Mission accomplished.

No i get your point on fov. And yes leupold are pretty well junk anymore. But you cannot tell me that a locking turret is not better and that the majority of people looking for a hunting scope (not target) wouldnt prefer locking. And i cant imagine someone not buying a scope because it has locking turrets.

 

[WeiserBucks]

But you cannot tell me that a locking turret is not better and that the majority of people looking for a hunting scope (not target) wouldnt prefer locking. And i cant imagine someone not buying a scope because it has locking turrets.

Locking turrets are like any other feature, some people want them and some don't. They'll each tell you why their logic is "better".

 

[cocky84]

Locking turrets are like any other feature, some people want them and some don't. They'll each tell you why their logic is "better".

Sure , i can understand that and wouldnt disagree with either. Everyone has their own preferences. Im just saying there are people who wont buy a scope because it doesn’t have locking turrets. There probably isnt many people that wont buy a scope they want because it does have locking turrets.