Heart shots drop deer instantly?

[Wags]

I've taken 16 animals over the last 3 years with the ELDX. They ranged from 80-410 yards. Most being 200-300. I've only had a couple of exit wounds. This year was the only time I've had an animal run more than 10 yards. Most fell right where they stood. Most were double lung placement, a couple in the heart & 2 neck shots.

My sons deer was the only one who ran on us after the shot. She made it a solid 200 before piling up. I could not see her fall because of terrain. I will say only having one wound making a blood trail made it interesting but after 45 minutes I located her. Perfectly placed, no exit, 205 yards with the 6.5. Not sure why she ran as far as she did, but it happens.

Overall I've been happy with the terminal performance of the eldx. However if your expecting Partition exits, it's not going to happen every time.

 

[manitou1]

Aside from shooting them in the head, not likely.

Of the last 15 deer and antelope I have shot in the chest only two have NOT dropped in their tracks. The two only went 20 yards.
Maybe it is the bullet construction, cartridge and terminal performance.
Although I have no written statistics, I would guess of the last 30 deer killed that 80%+ dropped in their tracks and none went beyond 20 yards, always choosing a heart/lung target.
All were shot with 7mm Rem mag, 7mm-08, or .280 Rem and all with Nosler bullets.

I suppose I have been very lucky in this aspect, although having them run 800 yards in the direction of the truck would have been a big plus!

 

[ChrisAU]

Step back and think about what is happening to the bullet, and what is happening to the animal.

Most likely "DRT's" are caused by a fragment of a bullet impacting the CNS. A perfect shot that causes a bullet to 100% mushroom will likely throw fragments if it hits any bone at all, rib included.

Now, DRT is never DRT either - that animal is alive until the brain ceases to function. There will always be a time frame, barring a head shot, that the animal is alive after the shot. For it to drop and not move with a shoulder/heart shot, something has impacted the CNS and paralyzed all or parts of that animal which is a state they remain in until the brain shuts down, could be 2 seconds could be minutes.

 

[MNGrouser]

I've given up trying to make sense of it. I shot 2 deer out of the same stand party hunting with my girlfriend last year. The first was a buck inside 20 yards. When he ran off, I was afraid I missed or somehow gut-shot him. Nope. Piled up just inside the wood-line about 80 yards away. Perfect heart shot.

The next one was a doe just inside 200 yards. At the shot she tipped over stiff-legged. Great, I thought, spined her and messed up the back-straps. Wrong again. Second deer drilled through the heart. I had an old timer tell me it has to due with where the heart is in the pumping process. Similar to the lung capacity theory. I'm not sure if we'll ever know for sure.

 

[ognennyy]

Of the last 15 deer and antelope I have shot in the chest only two have NOT dropped in their tracks. The two only went 20 yards.
Maybe it is the bullet construction, cartridge and terminal performance.
Although I have no written statistics, I would guess of the last 30 deer killed that 80%+ dropped in their tracks and none went beyond 20 yards, always choosing a heart/lung target.
All were shot with 7mm Rem mag, 7mm-08, or .280 Rem and all with Nosler bullets.

I suppose I have been very lucky in this aspect, although having them run 800 yards in the direction of the truck would have been a big plus!

Haha if we could get the to run toward the truck would indeed be much better

 

[Newtosavage]

Alright, I’ve always heard about deer dropping as soon as they get hit and not moving anymore but never actually seen it. I usually bow hunt but decided to rifle hunt this year to try and get the wife into hunting. Long story short, I shot a fairly mature mule deer buck with a 6.5 creed shooting 143gr eld-x hand loads. It dropped as soon as I shot it and never moved again. I know for a fact I didn’t spine him and I used the gutless method to get him out. I tried looking for heart but didn’t have time to dig beyond looking through the ribs because I was worried about meat spoiling. The chest cavity was also full of blood. The entry and exit holes looked like I could’ve hit the heart but I’d never dug into a deer to find the heart before. Anyway, now that I’ve explained the situation….

Is there any way to shoot a deer and have it drop instantly without it being a heart shot assuming it wasn’t spined? Both in this situation and in general?

You can never predict how a deer will react when shot with a rifle. I had the same result with a mule deer a couple years ago. 139 grain SST right through both lungs. No bones hit. Dropped dead in its tracks and the exit wound was only the size of a quarter so I know the bullet didn't "blow up."

I've heart shot a few deer with a rifle and had them run hundreds of yards.

Every single one is different.

 

[eaglemountainman]

Shots higher on the shoulder will short circuit the mass of nerves in the brachial plexus, resulting in the animal falling dead in his shadow. Death may take a short bit of time, but the animal isn't going anywhere.

 

[Rich M]

Step back and think about what is happening to the bullet, and what is happening to the animal.

Most likely "DRT's" are caused by a fragment of a bullet impacting the CNS. A perfect shot that causes a bullet to 100% mushroom will likely throw fragments if it hits any bone at all, rib included.

Now, DRT is never DRT either - that animal is alive until the brain ceases to function. There will always be a time frame, barring a head shot, that the animal is alive after the shot. For it to drop and not move with a shoulder/heart shot, something has impacted the CNS and paralyzed all or parts of that animal which is a state they remain in until the brain shuts down, could be 2 seconds could be minutes.

You can talk about your experiences, we’ll talk about ours.

You are trying to explain that a heart or lung shot somehow hit the CNS cause there is no other way a deer would drop. That’s not true. Some loads just plain flatten deer. You dont need to hit CNS to level a deer.

 

[ChrisAU]

You can talk about your experiences, we’ll talk about ours.

You are trying to explain that a heart or lung shot somehow hit the CNS cause there is no other way a deer would drop. That’s not true. Some loads just plain flatten deer. You dont need to hit CNS to level a deer.

Not sure why the hostility, I’m just joining the conversation. A bullet that hits nothing but soft tissue and retains 100% of its mass from entrance to exit simply won’t instantly kill a deer. Can they fall down? Sure. Are they dead when they hit the dirt? No, though that may occur seconds later and be indistinguishable to the shooter.

As noted above, the CNS doesn’t mean a direct impact on the brain or spine. Fragments can impact the CNS in other ways.

I’m not a biologist, I’m just trying to think about the subject logically. I’ve only shot 400-450 deer with a rifle though, so me theorizing on my experiences may not yet be valid.

 

[EastHumboldt]

I’m sure that a massive shock wave to a nerve plexus will have the effect of immobilizing them without any metal cutting any nerves. Like the football player last weekend with the twisted hands after he got hit. By the time the shock wears off they’ve bled out. Just my theory and worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[Rich M]

Not sure why the hostility, I’m just joining the conversation. A bullet that hits nothing but soft tissue and retains 100% of its mass from entrance to exit simply won’t instantly kill a deer. Can they fall down? Sure. Are they dead when they hit the dirt? No, though that may occur seconds later and be indistinguishable to the shooter.

As noted above, the CNS doesn’t mean a direct impact on the brain or spine. Fragments can impact the CNS in other ways.

I’m not a biologist, I’m just trying to think about the subject logically. I’ve only shot 400-450 deer with a rifle though, so me theorizing on my experiences may not yet be valid.

No hostility. Sorry if it sounds like that. I've only shot 80-100. Most with 30-06.

This is one of those things that comes up when hunters get together. Everyone has an opinion and everyone else does too. You laugh and wish everyone there a good hunt.

IMO - CNS doesn't have to be involved for the animal to be DRT. I don't know what you are shooting all those deer with. This was 30-06 150 gr Sierra Pro Hunter at 2900 fps at barrel. This GA deer was chosen cause of the picture - it was hit where you can see at 250 yards - that's the exit hole. No CNS, full penetration, typical of that load's performance.


I get similar reactions with a 357 mag rifle - 158 gr XTP FP at 1900 fps at barrel - get some nice mushrooms with that bullet cause it is basically a tough hollow point. 13 out of 14 deer were DRT. I'm real careful to avoid bones with that little handgun load and usually see the bullet when cleaning the deer.

My 350 Legend is not a deer dropper. Shooting 165 gr FTX bullets at about 2300 fps, get full penetration but the deer usually fall and then get up and run a little ways. It doesn't have the smack the other two above do.

My 243 is similar - not a lot of spunk, even with a high shoulder shot. Hit within an inch of the spine at 220 yards on a 300# muley, only staggered him. Had to follow up with a rib shot and dumped him.

My counter to your CNS concept is that some load combinations just drop & kill deer. It seems to involve a faster energy dump and possibly a spike in blood pressure to the brain.

 

[ChrisAU]

No hostility. Sorry if it sounds like that. I've only shot 80-100. Most with 30-06.

This is one of those things that comes up when hunters get together. Everyone has an opinion and everyone else does too. You laugh and wish everyone there a good hunt.

IMO - CNS doesn't have to be involved for the animal to be DRT. I don't know what you are shooting all those deer with. This was 30-06 150 gr Sierra Pro Hunter at 2900 fps at barrel. This GA deer was chosen cause of the picture - it was hit where you can see at 250 yards - that's the exit hole. No CNS, full penetration, typical of that load's performance.
View attachment 463393

I get similar reactions with a 357 mag rifle - 158 gr XTP FP at 1900 fps at barrel - get some nice mushrooms with that bullet cause it is basically a tough hollow point. 13 out of 14 deer were DRT. I'm real careful to avoid bones with that little handgun load and usually see the bullet when cleaning the deer.

My 350 Legend is not a deer dropper. Shooting 165 gr FTX bullets at about 2300 fps, get full penetration but the deer usually fall and then get up and run a little ways. It doesn't have the smack the other two above do.

My 243 is similar - not a lot of spunk, even with a high shoulder shot. Hit within an inch of the spine at 220 yards on a 300# muley, only staggered him. Had to follow up with a rib shot and dumped him.

My counter to your CNS concept is that some load combinations just drop & kill deer. It seems to involve a faster energy dump and possibly a spike in blood pressure to the brain.

I hear ya, its fun to speculate on it.

In general, over the last few years I've instituted a mental process in my pre-shot routine that includes telling myself "Anchors Away" if I want the deer to drop, which is my que to move from my normal behind the shoulder lung shot to a high shoulder shot.

When hunting I almost always opt for behind the shoulder as you pictured to preserve the most meat. If its an exceptionally large buck (rare ha) or, much more common, I'm on depredation hunts, then I'll go for "anchors away" and drop them in their tracks. 90% of the time a behind the shoulder shot has resulted in at least a 50 yard run for me, even on small does.

That's using Partitions, Accubonds, TTSX's, ELD-X's, ELD-M's, and even Remington/Winchester cup & core bullets. Bucks & does, 40 lbs to 220 lbs.

Sometimes they do fall and expire before I get to them, but IMO they aren't dead when they fall, just incapacitated in some way. Maybe someone with a biological understanding will chime in, I am curious.

 

[Marble]

I have had deer and elk drop in their tracks with a non CNS hit. Ive had it happen with lung, heart and shots to that great big artery that runs down the spine. Doesn't happen everytime, or even half the time I guess. But it happens. Often enough to not be surprised.

I have also ran arrows through the same spots hit with a rifle and the animal runs a bit a dies.



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[CMF]

I've shot whitetail buck dead thru the heart with archery and he made it 60 yards uphill.

 

[KenLee]

I actually was thinking the same thing. It was a 75 yard shot and I’ve heard the eld-x can grenade at short distance. My only dillema is when looking at the exit hole it didn’t even look like the bullet expanded. I’m gonna check it again though now that I’ve gotten it cleaned up more.

Unexpanded bullet core exited. Front of bullet fragmented inside.

 

[whoami-72]

Interesting comments guys. I never heard the lungs out of breath idea before.

I’m pretty sure years ago I heard a fish and game guy say that when you have a heart shot that creates a large cavitation then it will create a low pressure area for the blood and drop the blood pressure of the deer to the point it essentially passes out and bleeds to death without knowing it. So I assumed that was the only option without a spinal hit. It’s interesting to hear all the antidotal evidence for different theories.

 

[MTPipeliner]

It’s a fairly long read, but this is a pretty interesting article about how bullets kill, knockdown shots that do/don’t hit the CNS, hydrostatic shock, etc.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html

 

[Marble]

It’s a fairly long read, but this is a pretty interesting article about how bullets kill, knockdown shots that do/don’t hit the CNS, hydrostatic shock, etc.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html

Everyone involved in the .223/6.5 creedmore/big magnum elk debate should read that.

Very informative and a lot variables I would have never considered. A lot more to ballistics and lethality among big game then anyone on either of those threads contributed.

Some of the head scratching moments in the elk (and other critters) woods when a bullet didn't perform well now makes sense.

Thank you for sharing!

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[bigmoose]

I shot a big buck head on with a 200 Nosler Partition at about 300 yards. He had been pushing a smaller buck around and they just separated. The bullet went through his heart. He took off running so fast that I thought I'd missed. I have never seen a deer run that fast. He was flat out with his belly inches from the ground. He finally crashed to the ground about 40 yards from where I'd shot him.

I've also shot a big bull elk with the same rifle and bullet at 150 yards. I'd been tracking him for 4 1/2 hours and got a snap shot as I spotted him across a stream through the heavy timber. He had just come out of some timber and as he saw me, he swung around to go back into the timber when I shot. The bullet went through his heart and he dropped like he was struck dead. The heart had a big hole right through the center but was still eatable.

I agree that it probably is just whatever the animal is thinking. I can't explain it. Most of the time I hit right behind the shoulder and take out the lungs. They still go 10 to 50 yards before hitting the dirt. Many times big bodied bucks will just hunch up and start or keep walking before their legs give out.

You just never know what the animal will do after the shot.

 

[Marble]

I shot a big buck head on with a 200 Nosler Partition at about 300 yards. He had been pushing a smaller buck around and they just separated. The bullet went through his heart. He took off running so fast that I thought I'd missed. I have never seen a deer run that fast. He was flat out with his belly inches from the ground. He finally crashed to the ground about 40 yards from where I'd shot him.

I've also shot a big bull elk with the same rifle and bullet at 150 yards. I'd been tracking him for 4 1/2 hours and got a snap shot as I spotted him across a stream through the heavy timber. He had just come out of some timber and as he saw me, he swung around to go back into the timber when I shot. The bullet went through his heart and he dropped like he was struck dead. The heart had a big hole right through the center but was still eatable.

I agree that it probably is just whatever the animal is thinking. I can't explain it. Most of the time I hit right behind the shoulder and take out the lungs. They still go 10 to 50 yards before hitting the dirt. Many times big bodied bucks will just hunch up and start or keep walking before their legs give out.

You just never know what the animal will do after the shot.

In that article referenced above, it explains why sometimes they hit the ground immediately and sometimes they run.

Imagine shooting an animal in the heart and it stops working. That also stops circulation thus leaving oxygon rich blood in the brain and muscles. It allows the animal to live for 30 seconds to a minute. Animals can take off on a dead run and cover several hundred yards in that time.

When they hit the ground immediately from a chest shot, it's because the brachial plexus (I beleivethat the correct term) network of nerves was interrupted. It puts the animal into a coma and it bleeds out. Sometimes the nerve is struck directly, sometimes it from hydrostatic or hydraulic shock.

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