Hard Shell Options

[txtransplant]

Ok fellas. I'm trying to figure out a good hard shell strategy. Hoping to ditch the soft shell and eliminate any need for a rain jacket. If I can find something that is durable enough to wear around the clock, waterproof, breathes adequately, and isn't louder than a rock concert.

For you guys that don't wear soft shells, what hard shell are you wearing? What's your strategy?

I've also tried looking at wind shirts, but I feel like I'd still want something more durable on the outside (soft shell or hard shell), so it sort of defeats the purpose.

Current pieces I'm looking at include KUIU Chugach TR, KUIU Kutana Storm Shell, and Sitka Dew Point. Open to other options and brands. (Also open to being talked out of ditching the soft shell to begin with, but I'm not entirely sold on the necessity of soft shells.)

 

[sr80]

Im a big fan of the SG M7 jacket

 

[txtransplant]

Im a big fan of the SG M7 jacket

Do you wear it as an all-around outer shell?

No issues with breatheability and sweating?

How’s the noise level?

 

[Jimss]

It looks like you hunt Colorado? What time of year and elevation do you intend on spending time? It would be good to know exactly what your season of use, activity level, etc to give a better answer.

If you've spent much time in the high country in Colo, Wyo, Utah, etc you know how quickly the weather changes.....even during the summer months. I have a large selection of clothes from base layers to outers to rain gear that I can change according to the conditions and how active I will be. I spend a great deal of time in the field year-round and it would be next to impossible using 1 dedicated jacket for all seasons. It would also be tough without a dedicated rain jacket. You are really limiting yourself and will likely be super uncomfortable (either too hot or too cold) if you don't have a least a little flexibility and a larger jacket selection.

As examples, I use a super thin, light hooded jacket during the summer that breathes extremely well and offers protection from the heat and sun. During the fall I may switch over to a light hooded jacket when scouting/hunting at high elevation. During the winter months I have a large selection of layers....most of the time using the same jacket I use in the fall but with the addition of a quiet cloth vest that I can wear as an outer plus a rain jacket to cut wind, cold, and snow. I would rather be able to choose between several layers for weight and bulk as well. One hefty hardshell likely is fairly bulky and heavy unless you plan on sitting in a blind or 1 spot for hours?

With that said, there are certain layers of clothes that I wear or have available to use on a fairly regular basis at different times of year and in different elevations, etc.

If you want breathability make sure your jacket has pitzips. I would also recommend a hood on your jackets If it rains, snows, or blows a hood will offer protection from the sun, moisture, and elements.

 

[txtransplant]

@Jimss were talking first rifle and later in Colorado, so mid-October and later. I wouldn’t use this for the summer.

Also wouldn’t consider a jacket without pit zips. It’s a must!

 

[txtransplant]

@sr80 also, how are the cuffs on the M7?

One thing that drives me nuts is all these hunting brands make their sleeves super tapered to the point that the cuffs are way too tight. I wear a L in “normal” clothes, and have an XL KUIU Guide jacket that I can barely get my wrist in the cuff with a watch on - let alone two or three layers underneath.

 

[Jimss]

It can be 80 degrees one day and a blizzard the next so I would still go with multiple layers rather than stuck with one thicker jacket. It's possible to unzip your jacket, open the pitzips, and untuck and unbutton your shirt layers to offer a little more ventilation.

My choice for tops during that time period would be a camo base layer shirt/hoody, heavier quiet cloth shirt similar to Cabelas heavier micro-fleece, a quiet cloth camo vest, jacket similar to a Sitka 90's or Kuiu with pitzips, and a Sitka or Kuiu rain jacket. With that selection you are good to go for just about any weather thrown at you from August through January.

One additional jacket I use is snow camo. Nothing stands out more than the human dark profile against white snow! I also wear different camo pattern tops than bottoms to break up the human profile. I'd say 80% of hunters I see wear the same camo pattern on top and bottom....not good!

I have used and abused the layers above in Colo, Wyo, Utah, and Alaska. I recently updated to several thickness's of Kuiu hoodies that I really like! They work fantastic on warmer days. I'll add a quiet Sitka vest if it's chilly, and my 90's jacket if it gets cold or if I'm inactive. I don't leave home without a couple pitzip rain jacket options! Rain jackets not only cut wind but also rain, snow, etc. They are great when I'm living in the snow for a week at a time!

The 90's jackets I use have velcro around the cuffs so it's possible to get them as tight or loose as you want. I really like that option.

 

[txtransplant]

My choice for tops during that time period would be a camo base layer shirt/hoody, heavier quiet cloth shirt similar to Cabelas heavier micro-fleece, a quiet cloth camo vest, jacket similar to a Sitka 90's or Kuiu with pitzips, and a Sitka or Kuiu rain jacket.

That’s basically what I’m trying to do, except skipping the soft shell layer.

Base layer merino or cold gear
Mid-layer merino
Optional full-zip fleece hoody
Puffy insulation
Waterproof hard shell

 

[txtransplant]

So for example, a “normal” system might look like this:
Base layer
Mid layer
Insulation
Soft shell
Rain jacket

KUIU Guide or Axis Hybrid jacket (22 to 24oz) + Northridge Rain Jacket (their lightest, 14oz) = 36+ oz. Way more if carrying a heavier rain jacket. Not necessarily wearing them at the same time, but carrying them both nonetheless.

If I can find the right hard shell, I’m thinking this would be more versatile and lighter weight:
Base layer
Mid layer
Full-zip hoody
Insulation
Waterproof hard shell

KUIU Strongfleece 280 Hoody (16oz) + Chugach TR rain jacket (14oz) = 30oz. This setup seems both warmer (Strongfleece is warmer than the thin grid fleece in a soft shell + hard shell is windproof) and more versatile (can wear the fleece and hard shell layers independently, or swap between the fleece and the other mid layer with the hard shell still on.)

Obviously one big concern is breatheability in the hard shell. Pit zips will help and you’d have to stay comfortably cool underneath instead of toasty. If wind and/or precipitation is low enough, could put the hard shell back in the pack and use the fleece as outer layer, though.

Am I crazy like a fox, or just crazy?

What am I missing?

(Again, not married to KUIU, and I don’t like the Guide jacket cut, but I’m familiar with their lineup and it’s easy to reference weights, so that’s what I used for this example.)

 

[Poser]

If it’s not raining/snowing or I don’t need a layer to specially cut the wind, I can’t see any reason to wear a hardshell, especially when wearing a pack. So, when you say “wear around the clock”, it’s hard to imagine using a hardshell that way.

In this case, I think it’s more about dialing in your mid layer for “around the clock” comfort.

 

[Jimss]

I guess I question what the big deal is about a rain jacket? A quality rain jacket only weighs 10 to 14 oz and fits in a small pouch in a pack? In any given day If it looks like I’ll need it I bring it and if not it stays in the truck.

On extended trips where weather is a factor there is no way I leave my light rain jacket behind. My preference is to have an assortment available and being able to add or subtract what I’m wearing depending upon the weather and activity level.

Carrying a rain jacket may be slightly more weight on wet days but lighter on days you don’t need it. I think you are splitting hairs? By all means if you want a hard shell buy it to use on days it works!

 

[Marbles]

OR Furio. Hard to find in a good hunting color though.

I don't wear it unless dealing with rain, snow at warmer (above about 15 F) temps, wind, or needing to protect my down from snags.

My layering system consists of base layer, fleece, down jacket, down parka, hard shell, and wind jacket. Those pieces are adjusted for conditions.

Hard shells hold a lot of moisture, even with great ventilation like the Furio. I try not to use it if possible.

I view soft shells as a luxury item, so I agree that you should replace it. A fleece and wind jacket can do much of the same things with more versatility.

 

[Jimss]

What Poser mentioned in his post makes a lot of sense. A lot of it is trial and error. Everyone is a little different how much they sweat, how they tolerate conditions, etc. I’ve gotten to know my clothes selection very well. It’s super nice having a fairly large selection of clothes and layers to choose from rather than limited to 1 “all purpose” jacket. There are some days I may be constantly changing what I’m wearing and it’s super nice having flexibility and the ability to stay comfortable.

 

[txtransplant]

@Jimss It’s not that it’s a “big deal” to carry a rain jacket, it’s that I was wondering if it was possible to build an even better - more versatile and lighter weight - setup without the soft shell. It’s not looking like my 24/7 hard shell idea is very good, but I am still going to ditch the soft shell nonetheless.

I view soft shells as a luxury item, so I agree that you should replace it. A fleece and wind jacket can do much of the same things with more versatility.

That’s basically the conclusion I’m reaching here. @mtwarden gave me a few tips, and I think I’m landing on the KUIU Strongfleece 280 hoody + Black Diamond Alpine Start to replace the soft shell. Would still need a rain jacket if conditions call for it, but this is still more versatile than the soft shell, and probably warmer too.

 

[alaska_bou]

The best hard shell is pne that uses a 3-layer gore tex pro shell. Get on that uses a c-knit backer if you want a softer, more supple fabric that isn't as crinkly. From my experince this is still the best waterproof membrane on the market if staying dry is the #1 priority. Some companys will offer these shells in heavy denier fabric that can withstand almost anything. Check out arcteryx, the sita stormfront, etc.

 

[Dos Perros]

I don’t get soft shells, at least for the backpacking/weight sensitive crowd. They are heavy for whatever performance you get. I’ll wear one bird hunting when I have to fight through plum thickets, maybe float fishing, but that’s it.

 

[sr80]

Do you wear it as an all-around outer shell?

No issues with breatheability and sweating?

How’s the noise level?

I only wear it as an all around outer shell once its cooler, so in BC i dont really start to wear it till november. But if i go to northern BC ( backpack hunt for goats or sheep ) i bring it as a main jacket. The cuffs are plenty roomy, some people say the sleeves are too long, but if im wearing a puffy underneath they dont end up being too short. Which is the way SG designed it. And its really quiet for a rain shell. Soft shell type of quiet.

 

[OOSWLC]

i bought a sitka kodiak jacket for $190 because i felt rolling the dice was worth it at that price. (those deep sitka clearance's you can find online is actually how i've gotten all of my sitka clothing)... i don't have a ton of wear in it, but it is easily the warmest jacket i own when paired with a base layer and a hoodie - kinda makes me pissed i never had a good hardshell before.

i've only owned it for a little while but the few highlights i have so far are...

i did a weighted hike with 100# while wearing it - 18 degrees and snow falling fast - paired with a light first lite base layer and a sitka heavyweight hoodie i was sweating my ass off with the vents open and should have taken the hoodie off.

yesterday i went fishing - 20 degrees with little wind, standing still or very little movement, obviously standing on water - light first lite base layer, sitka heavyweight hoodie, cheaper hunting hoodie + kodiak jacket - i never got anywhere close to cold.

it's big and bulky for sure, and i imagine in 4/5 situations i wouldn't backpack with it... but i LOVE that jacket, especially under 200 bucks.
final thought on it - dropping the inside flap takes it down to just below my knees and doesn't impact movement at all, so that + gaiters is really all you need in the rain to keep your pants dry.

 

[mtwarden]

When the temps are going to be snow if there is precip, I don't bring a hardshell- a good windshirt will do.

If the temps are borderline where it could be snow or cold rain, I will bring a hardshell- I've found (the now discontinued) Sitka Flash- marketed as a wind layer, to be right at the lower end of the waterproof mark. It's done the trick in all but heavy downpours and weighs in at svelte 7 oz. It doesn't breathe that well, but better than most rain jackets. It does cut the wind very well and I will often it layer over the top of everything when glassing.

I'm not a big fan of soft shells for backpacking, they simply weigh too much for what they do. A good windshirt and active layer will outperform a soft-shell for similar weight.

 

[Vandy321]

CO here, I don't leave home without the Arcteryx Beta SV in my pack. It ain't cheap but it's the highest quality shell you will ever find. 80D, gore-tex Pro. Has a RECCO reflector in the hood too. You will not find a better jacket from a hunting manufacturer.

That said, I don't live in it. I have worn it hiking back to camp in storms, or when glassing, but typically if I'm moving and there is no active precip, there is no need for a hard shell in CO. Base layers and a Jetstream vest are the most I've ever needed for still hunting or packing in/out even in Nov. I do wear it anytime glassing though if wind is ever a factor.