Handgun training classes

[eric1115]

Since we seem to be on the "we all suck with pistols and would like to stop sucking" train, I've been thinking more seriously about getting some training. There's a wide range of stuff available, and since I don't know what I don't know, would love to hear what has been people's experiences with handgun classes.

I'm thinking that the "NRA certified instructor" at the local range is better than nothing, but most of those that I've looked into have a standard "lesson" that's a few hours and 100 rounds, which is not what I have envisioned as actual "training". Good first step or waste of time? I've got a few thousand rounds through a pistol over the last few years, and these seem more geared towards "I just bought a pistol or would like to, and have zero experience." Am I underestimating how much these types of classes can improve a shitty but not total beginner shooter?

Enhanced concealed carry classes seem similar, geared toward helping a true novice not shoot themselves or a bystander, not training toward what I'd hope to be true competence.

I'm not sure where the line between really good trainers and celebrity/personality types that get good reviews and following is. Also the difference between "tactical cool guy bullshit" vs actual competence. Does the fork in the road where one path leads to Garand Thumb (not that he's a bad shooter necessarily) and another leads to moving up the USPSA classes happen far enough down the line that I just need to get in anyone's Handgun 1 class? I don't have any desire to actually start competing in USPSA, but I would rather learn to hit what I'm shooting at than learn to clear a malfunction using weak hand only because we're simulating having taken a bullet to my strong hand.

I found that Chris Costa's place is less than an hour from my house, he seems pretty well regarded and he wants 1400 rounds minimum brought for his three day handgun 1 class. That seems like a good sign to me.

Is there anything that falls between the $100-200 and 100-200 round "lesson", and the $1k+, 1k+ round Costa/Clint Smith/Haley type class that you have done and found very useful? Are the Costa/Thunder Ranch type classes actually the best place to learn real skills? Is there some other place I should be looking? It seems like for what I want to learn, an instructor with a brightly colored shirt covered in sponsor logos would be better than one with a really good beard and tattoos.

Good pistol shooters, where would you start?

 

[Formidilosus]

Since we seem to be on the "we all suck with pistols and would like to stop sucking" train, I've been thinking more seriously about getting some training. There's a wide range of stuff available, and since I don't know what I don't know, would love to hear what has been people's experiences with handgun classes.

I'm thinking that the "NRA certified instructor" at the local range is better than nothing, but most of those that I've looked into have a standard "lesson" that's a few hours and 100 rounds, which is not what I have envisioned as actual "training". Good first step or waste of time?

No, that is not what you want. You are likely to get as much bad info as good from that.

I'm not sure where the line between really good trainers and celebrity/personality types that get good reviews and following is.

The first start, is do the people/person teaching the class have an objective high level shooting background that is verifiable. That means USPSA, IPSC, or Multi-Gun competition. Not some supposed BS tactical shooter. If the person teaching doesn’t have high level competency at about the Master or GM level in that sphere, I would be very cautious about them.

Also the difference between "tactical cool guy bullshit" vs actual competence.

Almost all “tactical” classes- maybe all, are just BS watered down shooting. If they are not doing team work in/around structures, or Force on Force with simunitions- there is nothing “tactical” about it. Shooting on a flat range is just shooting.

Does the fork in the road where one path leads to Garand Thumb (not that he's a bad shooter necessarily) and another leads to moving up the USPSA classes happen far enough down the line that I just need to get in anyone's Handgun 1 class?

No it doesn’t. The fork starts at the first class route, except it’s not between those two end states. Shooting is shooting, but the gun handling emphasis can be and are different from a pure competition focused person, versus a person with high level competition background, but also with a carrying and using guns in the world focus.


If someone has clickbait LARPing crap on YouTube, you can pretty much strike them off. If they have “I killed so many dudes” in war videos, you probably want to proceed with extreme caution.

I don't have any desire to actually start competing in USPSA, but I would rather learn to hit what I'm shooting at than learn to clear a malfunction using weak hand only because we're simulating having taken a bullet to my strong hand.

That is a good place to be mentally. Both of those can be important at some point however.

I found that Chris Costa's place is less than an hour from my house, he seems pretty well regarded and he wants 1400 rounds minimum brought for his three day handgun 1 class. That seems like a good sign to me.

No. That is not the class you want.

Is there anything that falls between the $100-200 and 100-200 round "lesson", and the $1k+, 1k+ round Costa/Clint Smith/Haley type class that you have done and found very useful?

You need an in-depth class. Everyone does. Invest in yourself, not in toys.

Are the Costa/Thunder Ranch type classes actually the best place to learn real skills?

No they aren’t. Costa is whatever, but like all/most sold themselves for money. Once you start doing runway modeling with guns in Japan, I’m not sure that serious gun training is your focus.

As for Thunder Ranch.. it’s fine. But it’s so far into boomer gun shooting that at this point is… not ideal.

Is there some other place I should be looking? It seems like for what I want to learn, an instructor with a brightly colored shirt covered in sponsor logos would be better than one with a really good beard and tattoos.
Good pistol shooters, where would you start?

The best currently open training for actual skill and function is most likely Tactical Performance Center in Utah. Rossen understands pistol use, has a high level shooting background, and in general produces skill in students. More to the point, they don’t really teach anything that has to be unlearnt later. From what I have seen, they teach a foundation and logic of shooting and handling a handgun across the spectrum, that no one else does openly.


Take their Handgun Mastery 1 class.
https://tacticalperformancecenter.com/calendar/

 

[RWT]

@Form. Anyone in the Texas area you recommend? I put my limit to 1 day of driving if possible. I fly enough for work that I don’t want to do it on my down time.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Form. Anyone in the Texas area you recommend? I put my limit to 1 day of driving if possible. I fly enough for work that I don’t want to do it on my down time.

Not that I’m aware.

If you carry a pistol at all, training on it is so far and above more important than anything else in the gun/hunting realm, you go where the right training is.

 

[RWT]

Boondoggle on the corporate dime it’s.
My current training is shooting dueling trees in my pasture and moving between obstacles as fast as my blown out knees will allow me to
I do this once a quarter and sometimes it takes me 4 mags, other times it’s 6. All it does it demonstrate my suck attitude. My only concern is hitting the plates. I definitely need and want formal training.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

@Form. Anyone in the Texas area you recommend? I put my limit to 1 day of driving if possible. I fly enough for work that I don’t want to do it on my down time.

Check out Texas Hunting Forum and ask there.

 

[*zap*]

First you need to know what your training for and then plan a program to get there.
Shot @ the indoor range yesterday. 20 rounds of 9 thru a shield and 9 thru a .22 revolver one handed @ 7 yards. Worked three fundamentals, grip-trigger control-looking over the sights focusing on the target. Shooting booth light turned off. Everything in a 6" circle.
Leaving someone says "done already"?

Most folks don't get it and send large amounts of ammo downrange but never improve.

3-4 days a week of 20-30 rounds while working a plan to gain/maintain proficiency @ what your training for. Seems to me many folks get caught up in being an operator.
I am training to be able to protect my life.

YMMV.

BTW, my terrier does all my range sessions with me.

 

[eric1115]

No, that is not what you want. You are likely to get as much bad info as good from that.





The first start, is do the people/person teaching the class have an objective high level shooting background that is verifiable. That means USPSA, IPSC, or Multi-Gun competition. Not some supposed BS tactical shooter. If the person teaching doesn’t have high level competency at about the Master or GM level in that sphere, I would be very cautious about them.





Almost all “tactical” classes- maybe all, are just BS watered down shooting. If they are not doing team work in/around structures, or Force on Force with simunitions- there is nothing “tactical” about it. Shooting on a flat range is just shooting.




No it doesn’t. The fork starts at the first class route, except it’s not between those two end states. Shooting is shooting, but the gun handling emphasis can be and are different from a pure competition focused person, versus a person with high level competition background, but also with a carrying and using guns in the world focus.


If someone has clickbait LARPing crap on YouTube, you can pretty much strike them off. If they have “I killed so many dudes” in war videos, you probably want to proceed with extreme caution.





That is a good place to be mentally. Both of those can be important at some point however.





No. That is not the class you want.




You need an in-depth class. Everyone does. Invest in yourself, not in toys.





No they aren’t. Costa is whatever, but like all/most sold themselves for money. Once you start doing runway modeling with guns in Japan, I’m not sure that serious gun training is your focus.

As for Thunder Ranch.. it’s fine. But it’s so far into boomer gun shooting that at this point is… not ideal.





The best currently open training for actual skill and function is most likely Tactical Performance Center in Utah. Rossen understands pistol use, has a high level shooting background, and in general produces skill in students. More to the point, they don’t really teach anything that has to be unlearnt later. From what I have seen, they teach a foundation and logic of shooting and handling a handgun across the spectrum, that no one else does openly.


Take their Handgun Mastery 1 class.
https://tacticalperformancecenter.com/calendar/

Thank you for, as always, the detailed and helpful post! It's funny, watching guys like GT, John Lovell, etc run a pistol I can see differences vs watching some of the high level competitors that have stuff on YouTube but I don't have the level of knowledge to make sense of it.

I think it's easy to assume that since those guys are so far ahead of me as pistol shooters, that style of instruction would be as helpful as a USPSA GM, like how a 10 year old probably learns as much from a high school science teacher as he would from physics professor with a PhD.

On the other hand, when I watch most of them do long range rifle stuff, talk ballistics, etc I realize I would not point a total beginner to them to start learning to shoot a rifle. They posture with the same level of authority, but I actually have the knowledge base to know how full of shit they are. Some of it is pretty entertaining to me, but I've rarely been accused of being overly mature.

I really appreciate the specific recommendations; reading the course description for the TPC course it sounds like any of a dozen other courses that are at best a mixed bag. As a beginner it's really hard to sort out who's good and who's full of shit.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thank you for, as always, the detailed and helpful post! It's funny, watching guys like GT, John Lovell, etc run a pistol I can see differences vs watching some of the high level competitors that have stuff on YouTube but I don't have the level of knowledge to make sense of it.

I think it's easy to assume that since those guys are so far ahead of me as pistol shooters, that style of instruction would be as helpful as a USPSA GM, like how a 10 year old probably learns as much from a high school science teacher as he would from physics professor with a PhD.

No, it’s not like that. The TPC class generally starts at the beginning, and works through the process to give a very solid baseline for anyone. It’s not a beginner or advanced class- it’s for almost anyone.

On the other hand, when I watch most of them do long range rifle stuff, talk ballistics, etc I realize I would not point a total beginner to them to start learning to shoot a rifle. They posture with the same level of authority, but I actually have the knowledge base to know how full of shit they are. Some of it is pretty entertaining to me, but I've rarely been accused of being overly mature.

I really appreciate the specific recommendations; reading the course description for the TPC course it sounds like any of a dozen other courses that are at best a mixed bag. As a beginner it's really hard to sort out who's good and who's full of shit.

Yes. If you don’t have the in-depth knowledge and skill, you get grifted like every other person. The tactical guys are as cringe to real pistol shooters as they are to LR shooters or hunters when they talk about that.

 

[RockAndSage]

Since we seem to be on the "we all suck with pistols and would like to stop sucking" train, I've been thinking more seriously about getting some training. There's a wide range of stuff available, and since I don't know what I don't know, would love to hear what has been people's experiences with handgun classes.

I'm thinking that the "NRA certified instructor" at the local range is better than nothing, but most of those that I've looked into have a standard "lesson" that's a few hours and 100 rounds, which is not what I have envisioned as actual "training". Good first step or waste of time? I've got a few thousand rounds through a pistol over the last few years, and these seem more geared towards "I just bought a pistol or would like to, and have zero experience." Am I underestimating how much these types of classes can improve a shitty but not total beginner shooter?

Enhanced concealed carry classes seem similar, geared toward helping a true novice not shoot themselves or a bystander, not training toward what I'd hope to be true competence.

I'm not sure where the line between really good trainers and celebrity/personality types that get good reviews and following is. Also the difference between "tactical cool guy bullshit" vs actual competence. Does the fork in the road where one path leads to Garand Thumb (not that he's a bad shooter necessarily) and another leads to moving up the USPSA classes happen far enough down the line that I just need to get in anyone's Handgun 1 class? I don't have any desire to actually start competing in USPSA, but I would rather learn to hit what I'm shooting at than learn to clear a malfunction using weak hand only because we're simulating having taken a bullet to my strong hand.

I found that Chris Costa's place is less than an hour from my house, he seems pretty well regarded and he wants 1400 rounds minimum brought for his three day handgun 1 class. That seems like a good sign to me.

Is there anything that falls between the $100-200 and 100-200 round "lesson", and the $1k+, 1k+ round Costa/Clint Smith/Haley type class that you have done and found very useful? Are the Costa/Thunder Ranch type classes actually the best place to learn real skills? Is there some other place I should be looking? It seems like for what I want to learn, an instructor with a brightly colored shirt covered in sponsor logos would be better than one with a really good beard and tattoos.

Good pistol shooters, where would you start?

You can tell a lot about a person by the questions they ask, and those are excellent questions/thoughts/concerns. Everything Form said in response is solid and I wouldn't disagree on any of it.

I'll only add two things:

1) Always know your instructor's zero - and remember that bias when evaluating what to apply to your survival realities, while also taking in every ounce of instruction you can, and experiment with it.

If his professional/occupational DNA was founded in the military, especially in the SOF community, you can expect a lot of the instruction to be oriented more around having the initiative (you know you're going into a gunfight, rather than reacting to a sudden and unexpected violent encounter), transitions from carbine-to-pistol, weak-hand shooting and loading drills, etc, along with some discussion of what people actually do when you shoot them, depending on where you shoot them. Especially with the case of former Delta shooters, you can often also expect some degree of focus on precision handgunning, in addition to the shoot-fast stuff across multiple targets. The higher up in the SOF food-chain you go, the less dogmatic and absolutist you'll find the instructors to be, while also giving you the best information they have.

If your instructor's zero comes out of the competition community, expect a lot of target-transition, footwork, drill from holster, and shooting at speed - but remember that games are not gunfights. Some of the $h*t coming out of that community will get you killed if it's unquestioningly - or just reactively - applied to a violent encounter. As long as you think of it as shooting instruction, you'll be fine, and the better ones will be the first to tell you they're not teaching you gunfighting. And the best actual gunfighters (people paid by their governments to do that, institutionally) get a lot of training from the elite competition shooters. So there's definitely value in learning from them. Some of the best classes you can get though, hands-down, will have a guy from each world team-teaching, bringing out the best and most useful info and training for the needs of the types of people in a given class.

While it's a lot harder to find, there's a very small segment of this world that was not overrun by the flood of former SOF/mil guys coming out of the post-9/11 GWOT world, comprised of people who did various forms of deep undercover work in US and overseas locations. They generally focus on instantly ending a fight in unexpected and unpredictable situations, from deep concealed-carry, with a heavy emphasis on shoot/no-shoot and interaction with live, thinking people in scenario-based training that emphasizes thinking, talking, and judgment more than shooting. It's some of the unsexiest, yet most reality-useful training out there. Most of those instructors are/were former detectives, three-letter veterans, or spooks of various backgrounds, and I couldn't tell you where to look for them. Anyone who advertises is probably a charlatan, unless proven otherwise. Best guess would be to find the right shooting instructors who come from a valid SOF background, and ask them if they know anyone.

2) Another option beyond attending a class, is to commission a private class. There are a number of top-tier, real-world seasoned people who will do this, coming to you. If you can get a handful of people to split the cost, you can get a reasonably affordable private class with just 5 or 6 other students. The top names that come to mind at the moment are Chuck Pressburg (Presscheck Consulting) and Drew Estell at BAER Solutions.

 

[eric1115]

No, it’s not like that. The TPC class generally starts at the beginning, and works through the process to give a very solid baseline for anyone. It’s not a beginner or advanced class- it’s for almost anyone.



Yes. If you don’t have the in-depth knowledge and skill, you get grifted like every other person. The tactical guys are as cringe to real pistol shooters as they are to LR shooters or hunters when they talk about that.

Haha, there's a principle I've heard talked about, where you read any news article about a topic you're well versed in and 99% of the time, it's comically off base. Then you move on to the next article and assume it's more or less accurate. I think there's a connection between that and this.

 

[eric1115]

You can tell a lot about a person by the questions they ask, and those are excellent questions/thoughts/concerns. Everything Form said in response is solid and I wouldn't disagree on any of it.

I'll only add two things:

1) Always know your instructor's zero - and remember that bias when evaluating what to apply to your survival realities, while also taking in every ounce of instruction you can, and experiment with it.

If his professional/occupational DNA was founded in the military, especially in the SOF community, you can expect a lot of the instruction to be oriented more around having the initiative (you know you're going into a gunfight, rather than reacting to a sudden and unexpected violent encounter), transitions from carbine-to-pistol, weak-hand shooting and loading drills, etc, along with some discussion of what people actually do when you shoot them, depending on where you shoot them. Especially with the case of former Delta shooters, you can often also expect some degree of focus on precision handgunning, in addition to the shoot-fast stuff across multiple targets. The higher up in the SOF food-chain you go, the less dogmatic and absolutist you'll find the instructors to be, while also giving you the best information they have.

If your instructor's zero comes out of the competition community, expect a lot of target-transition, footwork, drill from holster, and shooting at speed - but remember that games are not gunfights. Some of the $h*t coming out of that community will get you killed if it's unquestioningly - or just reactively - applied to a violent encounter. As long as you think of it as shooting instruction, you'll be fine, and the better ones will be the first to tell you they're not teaching you gunfighting. And the best actual gunfighters (people paid by their governments to do that, institutionally) get a lot of training from the elite competition shooters. So there's definitely value in learning from them. Some of the best classes you can get though, hands-down, will have a guy from each world team-teaching, bringing out the best and most useful info and training for the needs of the types of people in a given class.

While it's a lot harder to find, there's a very small segment of this world that was not overrun by the flood of former SOF/mil guys coming out of the post-9/11 GWOT world, comprised of people who did various forms of deep undercover work in US and overseas locations. They generally focus on instantly ending a fight in unexpected and unpredictable situations, from deep concealed-carry, with a heavy emphasis on shoot/no-shoot and interaction with live, thinking people in scenario-based training that emphasizes thinking, talking, and judgment more than shooting. It's some of the unsexiest, yet most reality-useful training out there. Most of those instructors are/were former detectives, three-letter veterans, or spooks of various backgrounds, and I couldn't tell you where to look for them. Anyone who advertises is probably a charlatan, unless proven otherwise. Best guess would be to find the right shooting instructors who come from a valid SOF background, and ask them if they know anyone.

2) Another option beyond attending a class, is to commission a private class. There are a number of top-tier, real-world seasoned people who will do this, coming to you. If you can get a handful of people to split the cost, you can get a reasonably affordable private class with just 5 or 6 other students. The top names that come to mind at the moment are Chuck Pressburg (Presscheck Consulting) and Drew Estell at BAER Solutions.

Thanks, that input is helpful and I had not really considered the difference between the mindset of someone who spent their career taking a gunfight to their adversary vs someone focused on what happens when you're not the one initiating an interaction.

Also makes sense that there is more to consider in a defensive situation than just putting rounds on target quickly, I think that is the place to start though and I think from reading the TPC course description that they do address both sides in depth.

 

[Rich M]

I talk to my wife about stuff. What about Cincinnati. Would/could you draw w 4-6 folks pounding on you.

If you did, how would you do it and where would you shoot them? Why? Where do you hold the gun?

How do you address the folks coming in from the sides - did you anticipate them? If not why not - they never act alone…. Blah blah blah.

Get your mental game on first, then carry.

The videos put out by the CCW groups are very helpful. They help you realize that not shooting is usually the right answer.

Know your state laws.

Good luck with your journey.

 

[*zap*]

^Once you discharge a firearm the hood rats scatter like cocaroaches when the lights come on.

 

[RockAndSage]

Also makes sense that there is more to consider in a defensive situation than just putting rounds on target quickly, I think that is the place to start though and I think from reading the TPC course description that they do address both sides in depth.

If it's an option then, TPC and don't give it a second thought.

There's one more angle about knowing your instructor's zero that came to mind just now, and that's generational imprint. Each generation has different survival realities their "best practices" evolve in, and each generation tends to also advance the ball downfield on technique and fundamentals that prove more effective as they experiment, test, field, and bring in new ideas. So your instructor's age can be a proxy snapshot and timestamp of that, especially former SOF guys. That's actually nowhere nearly as bad of an issue for competitive shooters.

You can get a guy who's literally a 15-year veteran of Delta, and 3-5 years after he's retired some of his handgun techniques can be antiquated. Not useless or ineffective by any means, just not as effective as newer iterations of skills and techniques. So unless that guy is regularly training with fresh blood and younger high-end shooters, he may find himself in a generational bubble without realizing it.

Yet everyone he teaches will assume, because he's ex SFOD-D, that what he teaches is "how Delta Force does it", and that it's at the cutting edge. Because there's no transparency or visibility into what's going on in active squadrons or what's being taught at the Operator Training Course. That's not a problem with top competitive shooters, as results and what's cutting-edge are pretty transparent.

Two good examples of this are how to hold your arms, and especially how to grip the handgun. I've personally gone through about 4 different iterations of how my hands interface with a handgun. Guys just 10 years older than me may have gone through 6 or more if they've kept current and consistent in refreshing their training, depending on whether they were ever trained on revolvers especially. Back at the beginning of GWOT, the big thing was to hunch your shoulders and "touch your muffs" (earmuffs) with them, and lock your elbows out, stiff-arming the gun and leaning forward. There were 'valid' theoretical reasons for this, and it was actually a big improvement for speed and accuracy over earlier techniques. But someone who was SOF at that time and hasn't kept current may not have ever been introduced to the speed, accuracy, and endurance advantages of newer techniques of keeping shoulders loose, head up, and handling the handgun mostly with hands and forearms (roughly describing it).

This isn't to say that older instructors are bad, by any means. Just know that generational imprint can be a thing.

 

[RadialJett]

No, it’s not like that. The TPC class generally starts at the beginning, and works through the process to give a very solid baseline for anyone. It’s not a beginner or advanced class- it’s for almost anyone.

I’m going through their online content in preparation for an in-person class. I’d second this. From what I’ve seen so far. Content is solid compared to what I’ve seen from various training sources from gov’t to former LEO/Mil folks to straight up mall ninjas.