Handgun caliber question

[RussDXT]

After listening to the “22 mag for bear defense” podcast, my question is there any reason to have a handgun in a caliber larger than 9mm?

I have taken deer with 10mm but cannot deny that I can get more hits faster with a 9mm vs .40,45,10mm, 44mag.

Not sure I’ll get rid of everything that’s larger than 9mm (enjoy shooting a 1911) but like the idea of simplifying the ammo diversity a bit.

Thoughts?

 

[Thegman]

44 Mag -> 10mm -> 45 Super -> started looking at actual bear defense incidents -> 9mm

That's what I've done over the years after objectively looking at the data we actually have on bear defense incidents.

Still have my 44 and a couple of 1911 45s, but haven't used them for years.

All else being equal, I have no doubt my 44 would be more effective, round for round, than a 9mm. In actual use though, for me, I can shoot the 9mm a lot faster and more accurately than I can my 44. With the 9mm, I can have 2 or more rounds on target in the time the 44 can have the first round on target, and the gap grows from there.

 

[omicron1792]

Doesn’t that sound a lot like the 223 thread? I would personally rather have 2 well placed shots on a bear than one larger round. But my next bear encounter will be my first.

 

[Bugger]

Could you clarify the intended purpose since you mentioned both bear defense and deer hunting? Im not sure the same gun would be ideal for both (i.e., a bunch of shots in a SHTF moment vs one well placed shot and low chance of follow-ups for deer)

 

[RussDXT]

I spend a fair amount of time in the backcountry hunting and hiking in the western US as well as the occasional Alaska trip. Considering just carrying a 9mm instead of the 10mm Glocks or 44 mags.

 

[Bama67]

I doubt if you sent a chunk of lead in the boiler room, the bear wouldn't notice the extra millimeter missing. I'd take what I can hit with reliably.
I killed a whitetail with a 9mm subcompact using Hornady XTP.
It went clean through, and it ran maybe 20 yards. Did plenty of damage.

 

[justinspicher]

I’ve only ever carried 9mm. Work or otherwise. Lower 48 and Alaska. I’ve never had to use it, yet.

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

44 mag or bigger for bear. If you need more than 3-6 rounds you didn't need to use the gun in the first place. Bear spray is a much better tool in the vast majority of situations.

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

That being said, I carry a 9 at times and see no reason to go up to a 10

 

[juju]

Less think, more do. Run your guns and see what's what for you, yourself.

 

[Thegman]

44 mag or bigger for bear. If you need more than 3-6 rounds you didn't need to use the gun in the first place. Bear spray is a much better tool in the vast majority of situations.

Actually, looking at the use case data, bear spray works just fine on bears that aren't particularly aggressive and may not need anything at all. That's how it's used 99% of the time and where it gets it (false) high-efficacy ratings. Rocks, slingshots, etc are as effective as bear spray in those cases.

The bear spray failures seem to occur in cases where a bear is truly determined to make contact and attack/kill a person.

E.g., two geologist gals in 2019 in Alaska. Weren't allowed to carry a firearm on the job. Predatory black bear attack. Bear spray failed to deter the bear. One gal killed, one escaped. Bear killed after the fact with firearm. Firearm would have easily stopped this attack (predatory black bear attacks usually happen pretty slowly, with the bear probing the person first, as happened in this case).

I think the same summer, guy working on a trail behind his home in Hope, AK. Was found killed and I think partially eaten. Bear spray again had been deployed and failed.

That was one summer, in one state.

Over hundreds of cases, there are essentially zero (or zero) failures where handguns 9mm and larger are used and hits on the bear are made.

Bear spray's biggest following and promotion is from people that primarily don't want bears killed/harmed while person safety is actually secondary. Much like non-lead bullets promoted by raptor groups, using biased data to dissuade people from using lead bullets. Their interests are actually the raptors, not the people, but they also skew data to help meet their ends.

 

[jimh406]

If you watch how 9mm penetrates vs 10mm, it's hard to justify the 10mm. There are plenty of examples on YouTube. Bullet construction is more important than caliber.

However, most people carry the biggest caliber they have whether it is justified or not.

 

[RussDXT]

From listening to the podcast it seems like a headshot/cns hit is all that will stop a bear. I’m not horribly worried about bears anyway but that’s an extreme worst case scenario. If there is no benefit there I’m wondering if that translates into all uses of a handgun.

 

[Trr15]

Seems like a .223 tikka and a Glock 19 is really all a guy needs to hunt plains game in Africa

 

[bullmtn]

Seems like a .223 tikka and a Glock 19 is really all a guy needs to hunt plains game in Africa

As long as you're wearing Safari approved clothes you are good to go.

 

[Hardly_Hangin]

What bullets do the most terminal damage out of a 9mm for deer hunting? All of the ballistic gel videos I've seen have not impressed me, with any handgun cartridge. I guess its because you can't get them moving fast enough to fragment violently. All permanent wound cavities are barely an inch of that.

Or is the allure similar to archery where you have to be close and stress shot placement?

I'm itching to tag some does with one.

I killed a hog with bb +p sportsman in 9mm, but it seems like for deer you wouldn't need a much penetration but more fragmenting.

 

[CMF]

There's a pretty good video comparing 9 and 10mm on actual bear skulls inside ballistic gel. It's on youtube, but i can't remember who put it out. a search should pull it up.

 

[Snowwolfe]

There are times, such as berry picking, where I might carry a Springfield 10mm loaded with 200 grain XTP bullets otherwise my choice is 44 mag or bigger.
Pepper spray has its place but I would rather plant a 300 grain slug in a bears skull instead of a shot of seasoning.

 

[tall]

Actually, looking at the use case data, bear spray works just fine on bears that aren't particularly aggressive and may not need anything at all. That's how it's used 99% of the time and where it gets it (false) high-efficacy ratings. Rocks, slingshots, etc are as effective as bear spray in those cases.

The bear spray failures seem to occur in cases where a bear is truly determined to make contact and attack/kill a person.

E.g., two geologist gals in 2019 in Alaska. Weren't allowed to carry a firearm on the job. Predatory black bear attack. Bear spray failed to deter the bear. One gal killed, one escaped. Bear killed after the fact with firearm. Firearm would have easily stopped this attack (predatory black bear attacks usually happen pretty slowly, with the bear probing the person first, as happened in this case).

I think the same summer, guy working on a trail behind his home in Hope, AK. Was found killed and I think partially eaten. Bear spray again had been deployed and failed.

That was one summer, in one state.

Over hundreds of cases, there are essentially zero (or zero) failures where handguns 9mm and larger are used and hits on the bear are made.

Bear spray's biggest following and promotion is from people that primarily don't want bears killed/harmed while person safety is actually secondary. Much like non-lead bullets promoted by raptor groups, using biased data to dissuade people from using lead bullets. Their interests are actually the raptors, not the people, but they also skew data to help meet their ends.

Assuming this is true, this is the best summary I’ve read on the subject.

In the WA backcountry I carry 9mm 124g +p. There’s a hollow point in the chamber and alternating flat nose and hollow point after that. I’ve heard good arguments for both projectiles and found there is no POI difference for me at bear/cougar defense distances.

I also have a Glock 20 but I found it a hassle to carry a gun that size and weight in the backcountry. Plus, 9mm ammo is cheaper.

 

[SwiftShot]

Lower 48 sure carry a 9mm your chance of dancing with a brownie are slim. More likely to run into a meth head. Now Alaska, that is a different world. Sorry that 9mm is not going into the skull of a brownie. There is a reason the most sold handgun up there is a glock 20. You have no idea how thick that head is. Can you use a 9mm to double lung him, yep. The problem is when he is coming you don't get to double lung him. You get a head down full front at 35 mph. Now lets talk weight, 450 to 1000 lbs sorry that 9 is not the choice. Anyway, you do you but if you meet one you will want more than a 9. Now your best weapon is your rifle anyway.