Gunsmith bedded stock - cant remove action

[BBob]

When you tighten that action screw, it will pull the lug down until the lug hits something or the resistance action to bend exceeds the in/lbs put into the action screws.

Exactly! I've tested it. If you don't bed the bottom and you test by relieving and tightening the front screw the barrel will move vertically. That's the proof of any good bedding job regardless of action design. What works for one doesn't mean it'll work for another of a different design.

 

[TaperPin]

When you tighten that action screw, it will pull the lug down until the lug hits something or the resistance action to bend exceeds the in/lbs put into the action screws. The tapered shape and action screw being threaded into it communicates the intent of design. When the bottom of the lug isn't supported, one just bends the action when they tighten up the screws.

You’re welcome to believe that, but the proof is on the target and there is no advantage to bedding the bottom of the lug with super accurate rifles, let along MOA hunting rifles.

 

[TaperPin]

Exactly! I've tested it. If you don't bed the bottom and you test by relieving and tightening the front screw the barrel will move vertically. That's the proof of any good bedding job regardless of action design. What works for one doesn't mean it'll work for another of a different design.

Testing it on target is testing - anything else is guess and hoping.

 

[sndmn11]

You’re welcome to believe that, but the proof is on the target and there is no advantage to bedding the bottom of the lug with super accurate rifles, let along MOA hunting rifles.

Are you confusing the Howa action being discussed in this thread with a more traditional action where the screws insert into the action body rather than the recoil lug?

 

[TaperPin]

Are you confusing the Howa action being discussed in this thread with a more traditional action where the screws insert into the action body rather than the recoil lug?

The Howa 1500 with the same recoil lug arrangement has been around since the 1980s - it’s been bedded and tested on target every way humanly possible for four decades. It’s not a new thing with the Howa mini.

 

[BBob]

Are you confusing the Howa action being discussed in this thread with a more traditional action where the screws insert into the action body rather than the recoil lug?

He's most definitely confused As I stated prior, by not bedding the bottom of the Howa lug will induce measurable stress but you already knew that

 

[sndmn11]

The Howa 1500 with the same recoil lug arrangement has been around since the 1980s - it’s been bedded and tested on target every way humanly possible for four decades. It’s not a new thing with the Howa mini.

That's a bummer! I was hoping you'd say you were speaking in generalities and didn't realize the Howa lug was relatively unique, so you had an out to walk back your claims.

For the same reason why you want to float the bottom of the lug on a traditionally oriented action while firmly supporting where the action screws insert, you want to float the bottom of the Howa action directly behind the lug while fully supporting where the action screws insert.

In any other way, you are creating a fulcrum, the action becomes the lever, and the action screws become battling loads that bend the action.

 

[TaperPin]

He's most definitely confused As I stated prior, by not bedding the bottom of the Howa lug will induce measurable stress but you already knew that

*chuckle*

 

[KyleR1985]

On the Howa (mini)

Does bedding an inch of the barrel in front of the recoil lug, as well as the flat on bottom of action behind recoil lug, and the back of the recoil lug, but leaving relief in front of and underneath the recoil lug, induce torque on the action?

I went this route, which seemingly reduced the amount of effort and precision compared to bedding the bottom of the recoil lug and floating the action.



Would you expect a rifle done this way to shoot poorly?

 

[The Guide]

It seems to me that Howa actions shoot the best when pillar bedded with the rear of the recoil lug is epoxy bedded. This needs to be done so the rear of the recoil lug fully seats in the stock or gets bedded so it gets even pressure down and rear ward during the recoil impulse. This allows the action and barrel to be free floated and stress free everywhere except the connection points at the tang and recoil lug. The Howa 1500 actions in their various versions and brands could all benefit from being stress relieved in this fashion. The biggest issue I've seen from Howa 1500 rifles of any type is contact stress whether from the barrel touching, the action getting pulled uneven, or most likely, a combination of the two.

Jay

 

[TaperPin]

That's a bummer! I was hoping you'd say you were speaking in generalities and didn't realize the Howa lug was relatively unique, so you had an out to walk back your claims.

For the same reason why you want to float the bottom of the lug on a traditionally oriented action while firmly supporting where the action screws insert, you want to float the bottom of the Howa action directly behind the lug while fully supporting where the action screws insert.

In any other way, you are creating a fulcrum, the action becomes the lever, and the action screws become battling loads that bend the action.

What a bummer I actually know what I’m talking about. lol
You aren’t wrong there being a lever, but the amount of force is not a lot. Action screws create how much clamping force at 60 inch pounds of torque? 1,400 lbs, 1,500 lbs? 1,500 lbs cantilevered less than 1/4” pulls up how hard on the rear action screw? 80 lbs ish? So the rear bedding is getting 1,420 lbs of clamping force while the front gets 1,500.

I don’t have a Howa, but the guys who wrote up their experiment with bedding or not on the Howa lug years ago convinced me it’s one of those things that is technically causing the receiver to be twisted, but as a practical matter it’s not enough to effect accuracy.

The amount of action flex is easy enough to measure. Attach a .0001” test indicator to the shank of the barrel and extend it back to read near the rear action screw as the front screw is loosened and tightened. I have no doubt it would move the needle. If only it made a difference on target I’d agree with you.

The whole argument goes away completely if an inch or two of the barrel shank is also bedded and removes the lever completely, as is often done. What would we talk about then?

Since the 1980s my test of bedding in a new rifle has been to slide a cereal box shim behind the front action screw - also creating a condition that should flex the action very similarly to the Howa. I’ve only seen identical accuracy between that and after the receiver is properly bedded.

 

[svivian]

I don’t have a Howa,

*chuckles*

 

[sndmn11]

What a bummer I actually know what I’m talking about.

I don’t have a Howa

Brilliant.

When someone puts a Howa/Vanguard in a chassis or pillar beds the action, guess what part of the recoil lug is in contact?

 

[wapitibob]

The bottom of that lug needs to be bedded so the lug has a solid platform to tighten onto, otherwise it will bend the action. The sides of the lug also need bedded to prevent slight rotation of the action from rotational torque when the bullet hits the rifling. Action screws that have clearance in the stock don't provide any resistance to those rotational forces.

 

[Wapiti1]

On the Howa (mini)

Does bedding an inch of the barrel in front of the recoil lug, as well as the flat on bottom of action behind recoil lug, and the back of the recoil lug, but leaving relief in front of and underneath the recoil lug, induce torque on the action?

I went this route, which seemingly reduced the amount of effort and precision compared to bedding the bottom of the recoil lug and floating the action.



Would you expect a rifle done this way to shoot poorly?

You're fine. The idea is to not bow the action when you torque the front screw. You have support front and back of the screw force, which is correct for any bedding job in a wood or synthetic stock.

Whether or not it shoots well depends on the rest of the bedding. If it has zero stress and is repeatable, then I would expect it to shoot as well as it can.

Jeremy

 

[Wapiti1]

This is an interesting thread.

Question. Does the action distort to fit the stock and not the other way around? Do you think a fairly short heat treated steel receiver is less stiff than walnut, carbon fiber, fiberglass or a synthetic blend?

Hmmmm.

Jeremy

 

[KyleR1985]

Brilliant.

When someone puts a Howa/Vanguard in a chassis or pillar beds the action, guess what part of the recoil lug is in contact?


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Why is there so much epoxy in there if it’s just floating on the pillar?

 

[sndmn11]

Why is there so much epoxy in there if it’s just floating on the pillar?

It isn't floating on the pillar, the bottom of the wedge/recoil lug is seated fully against the pillar.

This is an interesting thread.

Question. Does the action distort to fit the stock and not the other way around? Do you think a fairly short heat treated steel receiver is less stiff than walnut, carbon fiber, fiberglass or a synthetic blend?

Hmmmm.

Jeremy

If you know someone who was a 700adl, gradually tighten the front trigger guard screw and cycle the bolt. It is very easy to lock that configuration up. When there's unsupported load, the only thing that can cause a torque wrench to not click while being turned, and then click at the preset, is the tension of the material bending to that load. That means there's stress in action.

 

[wapitibob]

This is an interesting thread.

Question. Does the action distort to fit the stock and not the other way around? Do you think a fairly short heat treated steel receiver is less stiff than walnut, carbon fiber, fiberglass or a synthetic blend?

Hmmmm.

Jeremy

Heat treating increases hardness, not stiffness.