Gun trust for NFA weapons?????

[elkeaterco]

Has anyone done a gun trust for NFA (class 3) type weapons. I'm looking to start one so I can share a couple cans with family members.

Thanks. Jake

 

[JoshTX]

I started a trust for NFA items back in 2006. What would you like to know?

 

[elkeaterco]

Josh, that would be great. I talked with three different lawyers yesterday about getting one started. They offer a DIY type generic form for around 150-200. Then a semi custom form with legal advice for 550-700, and then a very specific trust for around 2000. I'm leaning toward the semi custom but truly think the generic type would work for me. I will probably only have two type 3 items in the trust, maybe more in time. I just want to make sure those in my trust are covered from any legal issues if they're in possession of one of these items. Thanks

Jake

 

[Jon Pynch]

I have quite a few nfa items in a trust. I don't know if this is frowned on, but i just followed a tutorial on one of the suppressor websites and used quicken will-maker and have had zero issues with all my transfers. i think the generic form would be just fine.

 

[JoshTX]

Josh, that would be great. I talked with three different lawyers yesterday about getting one started. They offer a DIY type generic form for around 150-200. Then a semi custom form with legal advice for 550-700, and then a very specific trust for around 2000. I'm leaning toward the semi custom but truly think the generic type would work for me. I will probably only have two type 3 items in the trust, maybe more in time. I just want to make sure those in my trust are covered from any legal issues if they're in possession of one of these items. Thanks

Jake

I used Quicken Will Maker back in 06' long before this was considered mainstream. My SOT dealer didn't even know about but now he uses the hell out of the trust route for his clients. There are a lot of people that will say that you need to use an attorney to start the trust but I disagree. There is no one to contest my trust. My wife, son and brother are on the trust so that in the event I expire, any one of them can be in possession of the items listed in the trust. Now if I was using someone other than blood either as a trustee I would recomment using an attorney. There is a higher probability that someone (not related to you) would contest the terms of the trust. I have also heard of family members turning on another to debate the terms of a trust so keep that in mind. Understand that the ATF doesn't give a damn who prepares your trust. It's a matter of risk and cost. For me the cost of $15 Quicken Will Maker made more sense than spending $5-700 on an attorney drafted trust. I have 3 can's and 3 SBR's in my trust and I have never had a problem at all.

I will say that it amazes me how many folks over complicate the trust method. It is simple and there is no catch. Create the trust, assign the trustee's, assign the property that you want included, have it notarized and send it off with your Form 1/4 whatever. As it stands right now, you do not need to include fingerprints, photos or LEO signatures for NFA items but that could change. As it stands right now, you do not need to include fingerprints, photos or LEO signatures for NFA items but that could change. There is a debate about whether those items will be required for all Trusts going forward. It would (in essence) kill the opportunity to use a trust (for me anyways) as if I must include a LEO signature for each trustee, it won't happen. Dallas county Sherrif will not sign off on any NFA items. He's supposed to do so unless the requestor is not allowed to possess those items, but he chooses a blanket, across the board approach and will not, under any circumstance sign off. Unfortunately it's too costly to take it to court, so it is what is. My point in saying this is, if you are on the fence, get off it. In a few months, the trust option may not be a good option.

All of this may differ from others experiences/viewpoints and that's fine. I've had zero problems getting my Form 1/4's approved and I have had no problems when I have been asked for copies of my Forms. I keep the original stamps/forms in a safety deposit box and keep copies of each form with each item. Anyone who tells you you have to have the original in your possession needs to take a piss test.

Again this is just my $.02 and your mileage may vary.

 

[elkeaterco]

Good to know, thanks! It sounds like the generic form works pretty well. One question, does it matter if one of the people on the trust lives in another state? I'm in Colorado and my Dad lives in OR.

 

[HellsCanyon]

http://nwgunlawgroup.com/gun-trusts/bronze-gun-trust/

I've done quite a few transfers and these guys are great to use to setup a trust. $97 one time fee and only takes about 20 minutes them you just get it notarized.

Mike

 

[elkeaterco]

Josh, thanks for taking the time to reply back with your experience. I think you have sold me on the DIY approach. My SOT dealer has never done a transfer with a trust so it'll be a learning experience for both of us. Hopefully, I can talk him into doing the electronic form 1/4 for me to save time.

Thanks a ton, good luck on the draw

Jake

 

[JoshTX]

Good to know, thanks! It sounds like the generic form works pretty well. One question, does it matter if one of the people on the trust lives in another state? I'm in Colorado and my Dad lives in OR.

Obviously I'm not an attorney so take it for what it's worth. I do not believe the physical location of the trustee matters. That said you need to make sure that the local/state laws of his location will allow him to possess an NFA item. In addition, if something were to happen to you he might have to fill out an ATF form 5320.20 (interstate transfer request) to get the items to him and then he will need to notify the ATF of the change of address of the items and the trust.

You are most welcome for the help. If you want to chat on the phone call me 214.549.6112 or if your dealer would like to talk to mine for clarification, I'd be happy to set it up. Either way, good luck to you!

 

[unm1136]

I got mine through www.guntrustlawyer.com. I called and gave them my particulars and and within two days I had a document in my hands that had been reviewed by a local attorney for compliance with local laws. I had it signed and notarized, emailed a copy back to the attorney and had a form one an a form four approved within six months. I looked into the do-it-yourself route first, and would have saved about 40%, but I have heard some stories about BATFE invalidating a trust after some "quality assurance" spot checks. The BATFE does not check or review to see if a trust is valid. They check to make sure that you are not doing something like listing yourself as the settlor or trustee and the beneficiary. If my trust is invalidated by anyone, for any reason, I can go after the attorney. Also, the GunTrustLawyer is really on the forefront of legislation and rule chances that could effect NFA owners.

I also got a really simple "how to use your trust document" where he goes through and walks you through the process. He explains things about why your trust should have a separate checking account, and how to get one. I wasn't going to go this route, but after listening to his reasoning, and hearing stories in the news about the BATFE's penchant for prosecuting people for constructive possession, and seeing first hand some low level BATFE corruption (an agent called in for illegally purchased gun during the AWB. No case was ever filed, guns were never tagged as evidence after they were seized). Not only does my trust have its own account, but I saved $20.00 a week from my pay and bought a Kifaru MegaTarp with those funds, paid for with my trust debit card, so the wife never found out.

Other issues I appreciated in my trust was a waiver for the need to protect the value of the property in the trust for the beneficiaries. So I can use and abuse my NFA stuff, eventually potentially destroying without giving my beneficiaries a means to come after me for the depreciated value of the property. My wife or I can take the kids out shooting with the NFA stuff, and as my kids get older they can be moved to "settlor/trustee" status, allowing them to possess/add/subtract property from the Trust.. I have no legal need to maintain the trust at the value of the property for the beneficiaries, I can add property or liquidate it from the Trust as I see fit.

My trust is 3 years old. I put in a form 1 at the same time a co-worker did, and mine on the trust took 6 months (about 6 months and three weeks, actually) and the co-worker did his as an individual purchase and it took 14 months. Mine even had the form sent back for the correction of a typo, and was still done in half the time.

I am a very satisfied customer. I have seen my police department throw people to the wolves over firearm related issues, and need to make sure that there are no screw ups in my NFA stuff, or I could be out of work. That is what drove me from Quicken and Legal Zoom, as while they generate trusts, Mr. Goldman is a very experienced NFA attorney who crafts a very nice trust. Like I said, any problems with my trust, and his firm is on the hook.

pat

 

[unm1136]

Obviously I'm not an attorney so take it for what it's worth. I do not believe the physical location of the trustee matters. That said you need to make sure that the local/state laws of his location will allow him to possess an NFA item. In addition, if something were to happen to you he might have to fill out an ATF form 5320.20 (interstate transfer request) to get the items to him and then he will need to notify the ATF of the change of address of the items and the trust.

My successor trustee lives in another state, but cannot have legal access to the goods until the wife and I are dead and the kids are under age. If the wife and I kick off, the kids are not old enough to own NFA items, and he still lives in an NFA friendly state, then he can have access and use of the property and take it home with him after filling out a 5320.20 for each item and notifying the BATFE. If he does not live in an NFA friendly state, then he will have to make arrangements for secure storage. Trusts are generally first and foremost estate planning tools.

Since I got my trust, BATF stands for Bureau of All Things Fun.
pat