Guided hunt fee structure

[bts]

Just returned from a hunt where an outfitter assured me that the quality of animal was well with in reality on a private ranch hunt. Apparently a very reputable outfitter. We glassed up one animal that was ok but was significantly smaller than what I had for expectations when booking the hunt(and had clearly discussed with outfitter). It got me thinking about the fee structure. Once you pay the outfitter their fee they really no longer have any "skin in the game" other than possibly reputation. So it got me thinking. This is less about money than it is the time and experience. On future hunts I would be willing to pay 50% down and then upon shooting at, wounding, harvesting an animal the other 50% PLUS another 25-50% of guide fee. There is certainly some risk to the outfitter but there is also reward to "put your money where your mouth is." I believe that this would make the outfitter be more honest with the hunter on his expectations prior to booking the hunt and work harder to get the hunter on game of their expectations. Probably not a reality but just wanted to hear what others thought.

 

[HornPorn]

There are some mixed bag hunts you can book with a deposit up in the NWT/Yukon, and then any harvest is on a trophy fee basis. But you are talking about a $30-60K bill at the end of it depending on what all you shoot. Or you can book a moose hunt or sheep hunt, but then caribou is a trophy fee basis.

Other than that I am not familiar with a guided hunt for free range game where you don't pay up front. What was the situation? Elk? They told you they had 300 inch bulls and they turned out to be 270?

Give us a little more context

 

[bts]

Elk. Conversations with outfitter prior to booking were 330-340. I was willing to shoot 320+. Saw only 1 6x6 entire hunt and was probably just better than 300.

 

[TBass]

I get it... I too was in a similar boat years ago. I was on an elk hunt in Canada and I was told that there was typically a 100% shooting opportunity on mature bulls (which for the area was 250-275" bulls... with some approaching 300).

After 7 days of hunting I was the only person out of 10 people at camp to harvest a bull... and the only one to have a shooting opportunity. 5 people never even saw a bull.

Upon talking to my guide, he informed me that the results were pretty typical of what they see each year. I know always ask for several referals, do my own research online for each outfitter & take a look at other outfitters in the area to verify what I am being told.

 

[ODB]

Just returned from a hunt where an outfitter assured me that the quality of animal was well with in reality on a private ranch hunt. Apparently a very reputable outfitter. We glassed up one animal that was ok but was significantly smaller than what I had for expectations when booking the hunt(and had clearly discussed with outfitter). It got me thinking about the fee structure. Once you pay the outfitter their fee they really no longer have any "skin in the game" other than possibly reputation. So it got me thinking. This is less about money than it is the time and experience. On future hunts I would be willing to pay 50% down and then upon shooting at, wounding, harvesting an animal the other 50% PLUS another 25-50% of guide fee. There is certainly some risk to the outfitter but there is also reward to "put your money where your mouth is." I believe that this would make the outfitter be more honest with the hunter on his expectations prior to booking the hunt and work harder to get the hunter on game of their expectations. Probably not a reality but just wanted to hear what others thought.

This is an old conundrum with a few moving parts. A lot of people criticize African hunting because of the “trophy fee” aspect, but it used to not be that way. You paid for everything up front - like you just did. That caused a few things: clients who were pissed at the effort of the white hunter because they already had the money, white hunters who were pissed at the client because they shot the first thing (or last thing at the end of the hunt) they saw (ie immature animals) to get their “money’s worth,” or a pissed off game department / outfitter because no one was happy at the end of the day.

That changed to a daily fee with trophy fees (let’s just call them ‘tags’ shall we?) only after the animal was shot. Then on top of that the client would tip based on the overall effort, experience, etc.


this took pressure off hunters to shoot just anything, put more pressure on white hunters to provide a better experience with more focus on the client’s desires, and in general raised the level of the experience and animals taken. If nothing came about, at least the client wasn’t out a tag fee of a substantial amount. The tip would of course be adjusted per the client’s preference

nothing is perfect, and you have unscrupulous white hunters who will still take advantage of the naive new client, but word travels fast.

I have come to like the African way of doing things for the reasons you and others have suggested.

 

[Goodtimekiller]

I’ve had bad luck, even when asking all the right questions, outfitters know how to fix numbers or lie and i’ve even gotten reviews (of course they only give you friends numbers or those who have killed) and an incredible referral from Huntin Fool. I just go diy they i can’t blame anyone and i can do whatever i want and have better luck and experiences.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WCB]

Yeah that most likely isn't going to happen. Outfitters would be getting stiffed left and right by guys that pass everything with out of touch expectations or guys would miss and say the outfitter put them in a bad position, too far, pressured to shoot, etc. Not that some outfitter's don't lie but there won't be a large voluntary change in the industry.

Any outfitter that says "you will see X size deer and X number of those sized deer" run from them. Any hunter that believes that is also partially to blame as animals have free will. Weather can push animals, pressure, predators etc.

Also, one possible way to weed out an outfitter would be to ask them how many animals they killed last year. Then look at the pictures they post. Notice how A LOT of outfitters say they take X number of clients, were 90% successful, but only have 1/3 or less of those animals on the website? And surprising they are all above average animals.

Also, que the outfitter bashing and guys who don't tip

 

[Stubborn_bowhunter]

So it was on private, or it was public that he said was on par with private?

 

[CJohnson]

I've never been on an outfitted hunt. But, if someone is guaranteeing you certain number of animals a certain size, I would assume they are either lying or it's some kind of high fence deal. I would want someone to lay out what their plan was..."We're going to start here, cover this amount of ground each day, here's plans B through H, etc."

 

[Doc Holliday]

I've never been on an outfitted hunt. But, if someone is guaranteeing you certain number of animals a certain size, I would assume they are either lying or it's some kind of high fence deal.

Ehh.....when you get into private land hunts where the ranch is 20,000+ acres and hunting is strictly managed, they may very well have a herd of elk year round that is 400 head or 800 head or whatever. The herd may bounce around between this ranch and another one over there, but the reality is they have a resident herd and they know what they have, as far as trophy quality year in and year out. Nothing high fence about it.

OP, what state were you in?

 

[280ack]

To the OP, I believe you have an issue with your outfitter. If he represented a certain class bull and you didn't see animals in that class you were either misled by the outfitter or the animals that were in that area last year were not present this year. Either way, you did shoot a bull.
I have always found it to be irresponsible for an outfitter to be boisterous to that point, it pisses people off and causes them BUYERS remorse. Ultimately it does not create repeat customers, it creates ill will. I have little experience with outfitters. I am aware that African outfits can claim ownership of animals in certain trophy ranges because they buy and swap animals with other organizations that may have high-scoring targets. That is generally either under a fence or in tightly controlled concessions. In the US with your model, you would have to hunt private fenced land and private fenced in animals for that to be feasible. The model you outline would certainly limit hunts to those "well to do" individuals and would help make sure the highest paying sport got the most favor from the hosts. The only way your outfitter's claim could be held as binding is if he had a privately owned herd under a fence. The guides and outfitters I know work hard to provide opportunities and experience, no bulls tied to trees or captured in a corral. Fair chase really means fair chance.

 

[Theringworm]

Look into some of the “-stan” country hunts for sheep. Unless you can convince the guide you are going to tip $15k+ you may never see a “trophy” caliber animal. They will lead you in another direction. No personal experience but there are lots of reviews on this topic.

 

[HornPorn]

Elk. Conversations with outfitter prior to booking were 330-340. I was willing to shoot 320+. Saw only 1 6x6 entire hunt and was probably just better than 300.

The only private land hunts I know of where 330+ are realistic are $15K not including tip, and there is a waiting list of 5-7 years right now. I hope you didn't pay that much for a 300 inch bull.....those are more like $10K, and have a 1 to 2 yr wait.

 

[Laramie]

It is hunting not killing. Unless you are paying to hunt a high fence operation, you stand the chance that you won't see what you are looking for.

I guided some very high profile property in New Mexico. Most hunters shot 300"+ bulls. All of my hunters shot elk but we had to work very hard for some lesser animals on a couple of the hunts because the elk just didn't move while those clients were there. It happens sometimes.

No way for most outfitters to offer a 50% down scenario without significantly raising prices. No matter how good the guides or the property, some guys just wouldn't end up paying the second half. To make the same money, all would have to pay the increase.

 

[bts]

NM. private 80,000 acre ranch

Ehh.....when you get into private land hunts where the ranch is 20,000+ acres and hunting is strictly managed, they may very well have a herd of elk year round that is 400 head or 800 head or whatever. The herd may bounce around between this ranch and another one over there, but the reality is they have a resident herd and they know what they have, as far as trophy quality year in and year out. Nothing high fence about it.

OP, what state were you in?

NM. Private 80,000 acre ranch

 

[HornPorn]

Wow. As I said before, if you paid more than 10K for that hunt, you should be upset. Otherwise you didn't pay over market, but they still misled you. 80K is a big ranch.

I hunted an 18K acre ranch and saw 35 bulls before I shot my 270" bull. Buddy shot a 300" the first day....those two bulls were definitely the biggest on the property that we saw. Was not high fence.

Something doesnt sound right with your situation.....

 

[Will_m]

Elk. Conversations with outfitter prior to booking were 330-340. I was willing to shoot 320+. Saw only 1 6x6 entire hunt and was probably just better than 300.

Can’t imagine going on a hunt and then complaining about how bad it was because I saw one that was “just better than 300.” It’s hunting, man. You are treating it like you paid for a certain class animal and when you went to pick it up they gave you something different.
All that being said, I can understand the feeling of being misled about the quality of the hunt.

 

[Brooks]

Outfitters sell hunts not elk.

 

[HookUp]

I get a certain satisfaction from these threads. Money can buy nearly anything but not always a successful hunt. its hunting...try one of the high fence ranches where they cant run away from you.

 

[bts]

I get a certain satisfaction from these threads. Money can buy nearly anything but not always a successful hunt. its hunting...try one of the high fence ranches where they cant run away from you.

You are missing the point. I am just contemplating how to best motivate an outfitter when game may be difficult to find. Money motivates and I believe if the outfitter had some skin in the game they may work a bit harder to find a suitable animal or be a bit more humble when presenting their case as why to book with them.